PERHAPS 300K is all the bangers have in the kitty for the Spanish press paints a very different picture of the Cuellar transfer as opposed to the spin of the laptop loyal................Cuellar "We are in the hands of those who have him contracted and who pay him.

"Cuellar is very grateful to Osasuna and he is not going to force his exit."

Bravo told local newspaper Diario de Navarra: "If Osasuna do not accept the offer from Rangers, it will be their right and we will respect them.

"Cuellar wants what is best for Osasuna and for himself. If there is an agreement with Rangers, Cuellar will sit down with Rangers to see if he can reach an agreement.

"Why would we speak to Rangers if Osasuna don't take the first step

More of the same this season, please.

the writing is on the wall unless Platini (my favourite player of all time btw) can bring about changes.

Putting our rivalries aside how are we to compete with the above mentioned teams who earn 20m+ just from the CL? The English clubs also have their Sky money on top and when any half decent players are available they will outbid any teams in Scotland. They will also offer the players much higher wages. Its a no brainer for these players, the SPL or the EPL, only one winner.

Now is the time before it is too late to start producing our own superstars.

#4
Oh yeh,oh yeh,oh yeh..The Town Crier and the Berkshire Berk..

Stick to the story Yanarse.

Bluenose, the old firm have to get more financially prudent. Celtic are getting there. Rangers have a mountain to climb due to the financial ineptitude of David Murray.

Ajax does it by becoming a buyer and a seller club. You buy young players and sell some of them on at a profit.

Celtic do it by selling on players like Marshall and Beattie for 2.8 million and using the funds to buy the likes of Donati.

However Rangers have to starting spending some reasonable money to accumulate, unless Walter has a few miracles up his sleeve. Rangers are in danger of sliipping into the abyss that Celtic fell into during Rangers nine in a row.

Celtic are finding other ways to generate revenue. Rangers have to do the same. However first they have to generate some success on the field.

Lets hope at least that the good young Scots players start to come through the ranks of all Scottish teams, now that it looks like they will get the chance to play.

#6 - I hear all this nonsense about David Murray and his "financial ineptitude". That's the ineptitude that's made him a millionaire and (during his period of Chairmanship) lift twice as many trophies as the many Celtic Chairmen. Murray took a considered gamble a few years ago that both Rangers and Celtic would be in the EPL. Like all courageous and entrepreneurial businessmen, he was bold and brave. If it had worked out, Rangers and Celtic would be in the top 4 of the EPL nowadays. Lets keep the posts to the original story and stop havering on about the same old rubbish.

What is the point of that comment at #5 anyone? Did someone's child use their parents computer or something? and whats a Yanarse?

I agree with the post of #3 and #8.

Scottish teams can't compete for signatures with the English teams and are not producing the players they used to like Dalglish and Souness etc etc, and if people don't want to discuss the topic they should not bore those who do with their strange comments.

#4# The article is about finances,just pointing out that bangers have none,although according to the laptop loyal bangers finances are sitting ready to strike.There is a universe of difference between between £10.6 mill and 300k,even a yokel like yourself must see that,bottom line is cash bangers aint got any and bangers are run by amatuers,Cuellar being just another fairytale.

8 - Don't be too praiseworthy of David Murray. Clearly the Bank of Scotland were allowing Rangers to operate under different rules from other clubs, and it is no coincidence the true extent of Rangers debt only came to light when the B.O.S merged with the Halifax.

10# Surely you are not surprised by rongers orcs failing to acknowledge anything to do with finances,after all they have another 22 million reasons to want to blank finances out.

No11 Ian ....

You are correct on what you say Ian..

Only after the merger the massive debts came to light and even present day the Laptop loyal cover up the real truth.
Rangers debts have only been transferred within the Murray Empire.
Before the last share issue £75,000,000 had been moved to Murray Sport from Rangers debts.
That sum has been convenently forgotten and hidden away. (£65,000,000 nowadays)
The £50m share issue when the Murray group purchased the bulk, went a long way towards other debts £70,000,000appx.

Quite obviously the HBOS and a different management team forced this issue.

The financial struggle Rangers find themselves in will be ongoing for a good many years.

Champions League football or any other fund raising competition is a grave necessity for clubs like Rangers and Celtic..
Celtic have since the Fergus era a solid base financially in which the bunnet should be thanked by the Celtic fans..

#8, have you just came out of a coma? Murray has been telling us all how skint Rangers are for a number of years now. The only difference is that the "biscuit tin mentality" has been rebranded "prudence". As for holding him up as some kind of financial role model, surely the signings of Flo, Prodan, Guivarc'h (spelling?), Salenko, to name but a few, suggests that he had more money than sense.

Rangers fans had the opportunity to help the club when SDM announced the share issue scheme to clear the clubs debt, but they couldn't even raise £4m between them ,so SDM had to underwrite some £50m himself and still they wonder why he's not willing to spend like he did before.
Take Celtic with their shrare issue for lennoxtown Dermot Desmond said he would underwrite the £13m for it to get built but he did'nt have to put one penny into it. Thats called backing your team.

Disparity of opponent is not just a scottish problem, it's a huge problem Europe wide in all EUFA senior competitions. What kind of competition do you have when English clubs that are handed £30 million at the start of each season, pile into the Intertoto cup, for example, and draw a small provincial Swiss, Austrian, etc, team with a stadium that can hold 6,000 people. What kind of match-up is that? It's like putting Mike Tyson in the ring wiith Mary Poppins.
You may as well pick your champions league quarter finalists now (I bet anyone could pick 6 of 8 no problem, right now). The Champions league is a discredited competition due to mismatches, especially in the early stages. I don't know the solution but Platini's credability is at stake. He vowed to change the format and limit competing countries to 3 teaams maximum. What we have now is a predictable procession which for me, year on year, sees me watching less and less champions league football. I've no interest in watching Chelsea play FC Crapo, and even if FC Crapo wins, they will most likely not qualify as Chelase get another 5 matches to get things right, and to make sure teams like FC Crapo NEVER qualify. This is what we have now.

Why is it always "Rangers and Celtic" when normal conventions would put this the other way round?

The fact that the Scotsman has done this is not surprising given they can't even put them in the other order when they directly quoting someone

http://sport.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=829&id=93595...

Something the BBC managed to do accurately.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/6...

A very good, although soberingly frightening article Scotsman. We both arrogantly used to think we were massive clubs, the bees knees, now to be fair, looking at the likes of Juve, Barcelona, Arsenal, Bayern, Manchester etc etc etc sadly lads we just ain’t there, and unless we get into the English league, we never will be. To continue to play in this Scottish Mickey Mouse league with its Minnie Mouse finances will do us both in! mark my words,,, seriously, Gretna!!!!! Inverness!!!! C’mon lads get real.

Oh and all you Tims can gloat all you want this year, fair enough you won the double and had a successful season, especially financially compared to us, fair play to you, enjoy your gloat, I hate to say it but your club seems to be better run than ours, my fellow bluenoses will hound me for saying it but I cant deny the facts.

I still can’t quite get my head around how Rangers can end up being 75 Million (or Trillion or whatever it is) in debt, I mean don’t we have a finance department, don’t we keep books, don’t we have checks and balances, I mean what happened, did somebody just say at a board meeting one day, “hey lads, I have just been to the bank and you’ll never guess what”

In addition I am also mystified into how we market the club, our shops are a joke, on line purchasing is nearly impossible (I live in Serbia for example and cant even make a purchase as the on line thing doesn’t include Serbia in the list of countries) and we change our shirts and colours like traffic lights (nothing wrong with a new shirt to generate a wee bit of income, just get the design right the first time and put the year under the club crest, simple innit)

Seriously we need what the Yanks would call a makeover, almost everything from our club badge, seriously a wee football with a lion in the centre, I think there is about 23 clubs in England with the same badge, Oh and our motto “Ready” !!!! eh Yeh ok ,,,
The worrying thing though is that

Totally bizarre,I actually watch far more UEFA cup games on terrestial than Champs League,even the prize money up,the rich just get richer.

Its gonna be funny when the diddy Gers crash out again before the champs league, they shouldnt let two teams from Scotland qualify, Celtic always do reasonably well while Rangers efforts give the Scottish game an even worse name than we already possess, not to mention their fans.

I'm actually reading some good comments here for a change. Maybe people have been sobered up with this article and are slowly realising, that we are indeed as Serbian Loyal says 'Mickey Mouse'

We can't compete in the transfer market against the likes of the English teams- and I mean both OF teams but particulary Rangers. Celtic fans- you guys have a lot of money to spend it seems but sadly (or not) the price of real stars has increased tenfold from our spending days. Look at Laudrup or even Larsson, we both paid very little for these guys who truly lit up the SPL time and time again. But what price for the equivalent nowadays- I reckon at least 10 million (no pound key) probably more. We are it seems along with a lot of countries being left in the football wilderness.

As I said before we need to start producing our own stars in abundance and now. The Scott Browns and Steven Naismiths are too few and far between and on a personal note the sort of player Murray Park should have been churning out a long time ago!

It hasn't been a level playing field financially since Sky appeared on the scene. The huge annual payout to the EPL clubs gives them a significant advantage over the SPL European qualifyers. In addition, Scotland is is no longer producing saleable talent as in the days of Dalglish, Macari, McClair, Strachan etc to further boost the coffers. We are indeed the poor relation!

Mr Angry - Calm Down - I was just pointing out how funny it was going to be when Rangers embarrass themselves again (hopefully just themselves this time, fingers crossed they don’t make a mockery of the Scottish game and I hope their fans don’t bring down Scotland Football Fans fantastic international reputation, again), you obviously don’t find it funny or agree, therefore apologies.

#22
Unneccessary!

18 team SPL is needed, then, if Platini has the baws and the support to get his changes through, he should make the criteria for every land the same.
Top 3 go to CL 4th and 5th go to UEFA cup, it's the only thing that makes any sense, after a few years the playing field will even out a bit because the truth is that the competitions in Germany, Spain and Italy aren't as healthy as they appear at first glance.
Top clubs in Italy and Germany are operating at massive debt which in another market would severely restrict their ability to splash stupid money about.
In Holland the KNVB operates strictly within the UEFA and FIFA requirements, this has seen the licenses from several clubs over the past 5 years being withdrawn until they have sorted out the finances - the question that should be getting asked is;
A Dutch club doesn't get it's license renewed when they can't independently bring up the season's required operating costs and give guarantees about debt reduction to the KNVB, which in turn means that the 'Professional' status of the club is withdrawn.
In Italy, clubs are routinely allowed to operate at debt levels of 30m - 40m in the red, the same is true in Spain, Portugal and Germany, (albeit at lower debt levels). - WHY???

We should also disabuse ourselves of any hope that Celtic or Rangers will ever be allowed to gorge ourselves at the same trough as the EPL!
Just now the TV rights in England are sewn up until 2010, by effectively perpetuating the idea that the Scottish competition is vastly inferior to the self proclaimed best competition in the world, they ensure that the situation will not change!

More's the pity.......

#22

Couldn't disagree with that.

Their behaviour is disgraceful, and I think most neutrals from Scotland would like to see Rangers out before its started. Surely the RAngers fans will agree with me until they get themselves sorted. Otherwise, we might see their stadium closed this and next season for remaining european games.

It'll be interesting to see if they get thru, and are put in a group with the Italians. They'll be fireworks, that's for sure.

It's all very well Celtic fans gloating, (as rangers fans were a couple of years before when celtic went out to artmedia..). However, all this does is highlight the incredibly precarious position all our clubs are in, due to the weakness (marketing-wise) of our domestic league. While we are hamstrung by UEFA not permitting us to set up our own league with the Benficas Ajaxs and Anderlechts of the world (football's Magners League??) we are stuck in this worrying position where absolutely everything rests on Champions League progress. Without this, as we see, our clubs are outbid by low-ranked english sides (our REAL competitors for players wanting to earn £ Sterling) who are cashed up with Sky money. If we are happy for this to continue, then fine, concentrate on slagging each other off. If however we really wantr to progress, we have to look at the bigger picture. The SPL atr the moment is a backwater, and I have no idea how to change this, but something has to be done, or the big leagues will get stronger, and we will all be reduced to the status of feeder clubs in a feeder league.

...although I must admit to thoroughly enjoying the immediate closed season anguish of RFC - Men In Tights, (because Murray has brought it on himself and his club through his own arrogance), I would even sacrifice that enjoyment to ensure the healthy future of football in Scotland.......

What the really big teams really want in Europe is a pan-European super-league with a restricted membership. They've not been able to engineer this yet but the existing CL format is the next best thing. As someone has already said, we could even now predict who make up the majority of the last 8. It's all about money and not sport.

SPL and EPL are the same in microcosm - simply a matter of the rich getting richer and shafting anyone who dares to challenge by any means at their disposal.

#18 - Dream on if you think the OF will get a chance to play in the EPL. They may acquit themselves reasonably well but there would be a hell of a lot of self-interest from the teams they may displace from their Premiership status to overcome and who's ever heard of turkeys voting for Christmas? Maybe if you applied for membership of the Conference and then worked your way up then you'd be seen to have earned the right but then how would you do that without the income? Welcome to Catch-22 Land - the real world of the majority of SPL and EPL clubs, and from the above article, the majority of European clubs outwith the self-interested and self-appointed elite.

#22...Celtic always do reasonably well!! Artmedia!!
Those who think either of the Old firm are big clubs are deluded, they are huge in Scotland.Full stop Big clubs are wealthy clubs and are spending 25m on one player, the OF are spending 4m...they cannot compete with this and to make matters worse the gap is getting bigger. look at the events of the last week when two players went to the Premiership rather than SPL With respect to West Ham and Blackburn but the wealth of the premiership bought the two guys recently not the lure of BIG clubs, and this will continue.

Last week there were posts decrying Athletico Madrid , saying they were mickey mouse etc...fools, they have just bought a player for 14m and still have 12m to play with following the sale of 1 player. Neither Celtic nor Rangers can compete with this level of wealth and never will. Unfortunately.

#3

Two wrongs don't make a right, however it is laughable to hear one side of the old firm complain about unfair competition.

#28 - To be honest I'm damned if I can see why any more than just the league champions should be allowed to compete. Having 3, 4 or possibly more from one contry just skews things even further. Remember a couple of seasons ago UEFA even re-wrote their own rules to allow Liverpool to compete when they had not qualified fromthe EPL?

Maybe Platini needs to turn the clock back and keep the CL for champions and re-introduce the Cup-winners Cup.

18 Serbian Loyal

I know it must be irritating for the many bears like yourself who find the gloating by the many hoops fans a pain in the a*se.

So fair play to you for not allowing our gloating to let you take your eye off the ball with regards the real problems for fans of RFC.

Although he significantly contributed to the glory of the 9IAR RFC era, serious questions now need to be asked about what that did for the long term viability and stability of the club and more importantly what is he doing now to advance the success of the club you support and love.

Serbian Loyal--many good and decent Celtic fans had real concerns in the 1990's before McCann arrived about airing our worries in public as it gave to our detractors something to hit us over the head with, it was only as the situation deepened and steadily got worse that CFC fans realised that was the least of their fears.

You look like you have reached that stage and as I said earlier congratulations and I hope you can persuade more bears to start to ask the difficult questions at Ibrox.

#35

Real Madrisd had already done this before Liverpool.

In 2002, MAdrid won the CL but finished only 5th in their league. The te4am that finished 4th in La Liga had been relegated to the UEFA cup because of Madrids win.

I think it was a decision made by the Spanish FA rather than UEFA, but it has happened before nevertheless.

I think their is a significant financial gap between CFC and RFC and if i were a bear i would be really nervous for if CFC get into this years group stages of the CL and Rangers end up in the UEFA Cup again the gap could move onto a level that would facilitate Celtic dominating the SPL for the next 5- 7 years.

Crucial for Rangers that they get past these 2 qualifiers in the CL otherwise the chase might be very long.

Does anyone know roughly, what the Rangers fixtures are for pre-season?

I'm just wondering if the claims that they are skint are an exaggeration? For example if they are on a tour to Japan, then they must be ok.

Excrutiating to watch the once mighty Rangers suffer the death of a thousand cuts. The real damage was done by P**** Advocaat though. Sadly humiliation awaits us in the CL qualifiers. Although I would gladly see us out at this stage -imagine facing Barcelona or AC Milan in group stages. Humped humped and humped again. Before I get pelters -that's the realistic expectations for next year. Of course there is always the League Cup!!

#35 - That is of course the other side to the coin, but I would be afraid that that would sponsor the biggest clubs even further relegating even more clubs to scratching in the dirt.
Whenever I sit and seriously think about what should be done, and I come up with an idea, within 10 minutes I've thought of 50 reasons why said idea just wouldn't work. It's a nice daydreaming exercise, but ultimately an almost unsolvable issue and one that will remain so for the forseeable future.

40

But they are going there on a rowing boat.

Rangers fans bleating on about how celtic fans wont be gloating if they go out of the CL before the group stages this year etc etc is nonsense.
Lawell, Quinn & Co. have demonstrated that they will not spend money that they do not have, or are not guaranteed. Unlike David Murray who constantly does this, dragging his club down to the gutter. Celtic going out this season will not put them into any difficulties this season, although the spending next close season would be minimal, as it should be.
Contrast that with David Murray, who always seems up for a gamble, that last throw of the dice eg PLG. he always has to have that last egotistical throw of the dice, throwing the rangers fans good money after bad. The man is an ego-maniac, with his ego being fuelled by the scottish press to this very day with the rubbish they print about sir minty mooonbeams and his minions.
Rangers need to start where celtic began under mcCann. This pretence at being the big spenders, bidding on players that they know they cannot afford with a tenner in their back pockets is embarassing. Pretending that they have £5m for Faubert and then wanting to pay killie 330k now and the rest in 4 years just adds to this lunacy.

#30# No bangers are in a precarious position due to inept management,Celtic are in a healthy position due to lucid and proper professional business men running the club.Obviously the fact that skinted murray can't hack it on a level playing field has been lost on bangers fans.

Rags supporters realise that Rags F.C. have been a train crash in the making since the turn of the century.
They quake in their boots not because of the rumbling passing by of the old decrepit steam train but by the fear and knowledge that it has now been replaced by The Bullit Train.
There are no buffers that will withstand its impact.

Who will be surprised when sifting through the wreckage and carnage that Sir Wantaway was found to be AWOL.

You've got to laugh at this thread. Mainly gloating Sellick fans ( how they're gonna get their come-uppance) some pretending to be Gers fans and a couple of genuine Gers fans.

Serbian "Loyal" even thinks the club crest is rubbish - yeah, 130 odd years but The Rangers (not Queen's Park or any other type of Gers) have the same one as dozens of English teams! A ball and the Scottish Lion Rampant - what's that got to do with Gers, he's probably asking himself, the numpty. Maybe we should change the blue jerseys - after all, a lot of sides play in blue whereas the whoops play in seldom-seen green thanks to the far-sighted Brother Walfrid, thinking of marketing possibilities - NOT.

I believe Gers will do their talking on the field this season. Let's hope ra Sellick keep doing theirs off it.

As for ra Sellick being so successful in Europe while Gers embarrass the country, according to Laddy....ra Sellick made it out of the CL groups for the first time a YEAR after the Gers. Gers made it to the last 16 of the UEFA. Ra Sellick STILL haven't won an away game in the CL - and that's even playing the cream of Denmark and Norway etc.

Hows the DEBT situation davro #48# forever the comedian living in a bangers fantasy land!

How many millions have the Old Firm wasted over the years just to compete with each other for the SPL title?

Mavro

Why did you not answer or respond to any of the genuine concerns of fellow bear Serbian Loyal?

Yes we are gloating, just like you guys did during the 9IAR RFC era, get used to it and cetainly get over it! That's how footballing rivalry works, when your winning you stick to your oppossition and when things aren't so good you just have to stand tall and take it like a man.

You do your club no favours by sticking your head in the sand and kidding yourself that SDM will change the fortunes of RFC. His time has come and gone and if i were a fan of RFC i would be seriously shi**ing myself at what his exit strategy is bearing in mind he is more businessman than bear.

You're welcome to gloat BUT stick to the facts. Gers are billions in debt and they manage to keep it a secret from all the authorities and financial wizards. What a genius SDM must be! 9-in-a-row seems worth a gloat but TWO?

Even the second rate, tacky little club that was ra Sellick when Fergus bought it managed to find a couple of 5th rate millionaires to buy it and save it from liquidation. Do you really think that if Murray eventually sells up there wouldn't be a queue of Scots millionaires(not Irishmen or Lithuanians) eager to buy the country's premier club? In your paranoid world of "the oppressed and downtrodden Irish" does Scotland not have dozens of "bigotted" millionaires, the Establishment, who'd want to put you lot in your place by rejuvenating the Gers?

You have to laugh at the new vernacular down at Ibrox. Words and phrases such as:

homegrown talent

not being held to ransom

value for money

undignified winners

gloating tims

This from a club who dominated Scottish football for a decade with foreign imports, ignored budgetary constraints and whose chairman once made the boast... for every....... well you know the rest.

These football fans better get real and start living in the real world.
The only reason they are interested in mediocre Scottish talent is because they are skint and it's amusing to see all the bears now proclaim that it's wonderful to see a team at Ibrox that "know what it means to wear the blue jersey"

You couldnae make it up!

RFC fans and reality, eh?

Mavro 52

Do you have someting against Ireland or Irish people?

Mavro
You said
"Do you really think that if Murray eventually sells up there wouldn't be a queue of Scots millionaires(not Irishmen or Lithuanians) eager to buy the country's premier club? In your paranoid world of "the oppressed and downtrodden Irish" does Scotland not have dozens of "bigotted" millionaires, the Establishment, who'd want to put you lot in your place by rejuvenating the Gers?

I think many good Scottish millionaires of non Celtic tradition may have been put off in recent years with all the negative publicity that goes with Rangers.
As you fans proudly proclaim you are the most hated throughout the land so many decent Scottish non tims have nothing but disdain for RFC, a club that is seen as the 'establishment' and the emodiment of all that is anti you know what!

#52 Marvo

Surely you're not a racist and a Rangers fan?
ps. What's with the 'ra' prefix?

#26 accepted , obviously we want as many Scottish teams in CL and hope they progress as far as possible.

Mavro

Why do you persist in using words such as:

Sellick and Piggery

Are you unaware that this demonstrates the limitations of your arguements/points?

The dribbling eejit that is Mavis is still wittering away – 5th rate Irish millionaires indeed. Two Irish billionaires and several other top class Irish millionaires and top class Scottish businessmen make up the shareholding of Celtic and the two boards.

Compare this raft of top-class business talent to the perma-tan Bain and the Mint, whom even a former director described as a poor businessman because he was more an entrepreneur incapable of attending to detail.

The same Mavis was yesterday denying that the Thread Bears were nearly £30m in debt and was claiming it was only £5m, even after I and others cut and pasted the relevant paragraph from their 2006 financial report. Still don't have the balls to admit you were writing Scheidt, do you?

And tell us, Einstein, how are you going to get "a queue of Scottish millionaires" to invest in "ragerz" when not a single person of note in Scottish society even owns up to supporting Enron FC?

Away back to your darkened room, mate – you forgot to take your medication this morning.

Mavro

Tell me, you have not ran away, have you?

Please, please stand up for you beliefs and explain!

good article..shows how much both teams are so dependant on one/two ties which can make or break this/next season by mid august.

Its good to get reality checks now and then. No matter how we like to witter on and confuse ex-pats going down the club to watch the game with 'global brand recognition' ..we sometimes have to accept we are in with the Ajax's/Feynoord/Marseille as former big names dining off the top tables scraps.

Celtic are a few years ahead in the 'PSV' style of buying players, getting a few good years and selling for profit...but rangers need to start catching up quickly.

Dermot Desmond (born 1950, Cork, Ireland) is regarded as one of Ireland's most successful entrepreneurs. He is estimated to be worth €2.121 thousand million and is ranked 5th on the Irish Rich List and 746 among 'The World's Richest People'.[1]

Sir David Edward Murray (born Ayr, 14 October 1951) is a Scottish entrepreneur, businessman and Chairman of Rangers Football, his personal wealth, estimated in the Sunday Times Rich List 2007 at £750 million, making him the 95th wealthiest person in Britain (and the seventh richest Scot).[2]

Bears and facts, eh?

TOP 5 RICHEST SCOTS
1. Sir Tom Hunter, Property and sports goods, £780m
2. Lord Laidlaw, Conferences and media, £730m
3. The Grant and Gordon Family, Whisky, £725m
4. Keith Miller, Construction, £715m
5. David Murray, Property and football, £650m

TOP 5 IRELAND'S RICH LIST
Hilary Weston and family (retailing): £4,089m
Sean Quinn and family (quarrying, property and insurance): £3,050m
Sir Anthony and Lady O'Reilly (food, media and inheritance): £1,672m
Denis O'Brien (mobile phones and investment): £1,493m
Dermot Desmond (finance: £1,400m

SCOTLAND'S 5 RICHEST
COMBINED WEALTH= £3600 MILL

IRELAND'S 5 RICHEST
COMBINED WEALTH= £11704 MILL

Actually the richest person in Ireland is richer than the top 5 Scots combined.

Mavro- there is nothing downtrodden or 5th rate about 'us' nowadays and people like you better get used to it!

Has Moron dropped a wee inciteful comment and then left the building knowing that his arguement was poor. At least stand up for what you disbelieve. Talk about blue blinkers and not being able to accept basic facts. The big question for all rankers fans is "Do you feel confident for the future, both on and off the park?" or are you just putting a brave face on it?

Mavis stick to facts?

1. 50m share issue total flop amongst the RFC supporters.

2. 22m in debt to be repaid over 22 years

3. 15m rotating credit to be reviewed every year.

4. Merchandising rights hocked out to JJB for the next 10 years.

5. Increasingly bad image in europe, (particularly Spain).

6. Increasingly bad image with UEFA.

7....... oh what's the point?

Mavis get help, you need it, all that bitterness and anger is not good for you, don't you get it yet?
It's not your fault, you're a product of your environment, and on top of it all you've been constantly lied to by the one person you should be able to see as a hero - Sir Minty...

...if it makes you feel any better; you're right when you say RFC made the final 16 of the CL a year before Celtic managed the same, (albeit with far better results and from a much harder group), but then Celtic were the first British club ever to win it, (and don't start about it being a whole other competition) 40 YEARS AGO.......

The pain, frustration and embarrassment must be absolutely unbearable - I actually pity you.......

Winning an arguement only really matters if you value the intelligence or viewpoint of the other person. Unfortunately, there is no contest when it comes to Mavis's inane ramblings. Subduing his great debating skills is hardly a challenge, but I didn't think he would disappear without a whimper.

Failing to qualify for the Champions League last season was indeed a financial hammer blow to an already skint Rangers, and the consequences if Walter Smith's men fail to negotiate the qualifiers this season are almost too black to contemplate.

The question is, are players like Gow, Broadfoot, etc. good enough to help Rangers make it into the Champions League?

Walter Smith's European record doesn't inspire confidence, and Kaunas will fancy their chances.

If the unthinkable happens, and the Scottish Champions continue to give a good account of themselves in Europe, I expect the perma-rage exhibited by Rangers fans like Mavro at #52 above to go nuclear.

I had a hamster called Marvo once. He died and I buried him in a flowerbed.

Anyway, back to the point. I'm fairly new to this commenting lark and am really surprised that practically every Scottish football forum turns into an old firm slagging match. Can anyone suggest a grown-up alternative?

#68 Why don't you?

18 - Serbian Loyal

Rangers do need a makeover.

How about a badge that features a businessman turning out his empty pockets and shrugging, while a moonbeam gleams over a French tricolore at half-mast in the background?

The motto could be "Aye Surrender", and the club song could be changed to "Every Loser Wins" by Nick Berry.

The club mascot could be changed to Frankie the Fiscal Responsibility Bear, and would delight young and old alike as he teaches the value of saving up fivers and tenners to pay off one's debts.

#68

The grown up alternative will kill these forums. Anyway, compared to Turkey, Holland, South American and Italian club derbies, the old firm derbies are like a teddy's bear picnic.

On old firm forums, its tit for tat.

On some foreign forums I've been on, its all about killing and death threats.

So be thankful that the Glasgow rivalry is so tame compared to a lot of others.

This smacks of the sad demise of the BBCSport website. Petty point scoring. I personally don't think either half of the Of will ever be in terminal decline. Especially as "The Bunnet" saved Celtic from bankruptcy at the eleventh hour.

Murray got it wrong by bankrolling Advocaat heavily but I for one did not complain at the time as guys like Mols, Van Bronkhurst, Numan, etc came to the club. But for some bad luck CL quarters would have been had. Murray gave Advocaat too much coin and he didn't deliver. I blame the Dutchman and not Murray.

It could have been worse. Risdale at Leeds gave O'Neil plenty to psend and they were one game away from CL final. Look at them now.

Murray has made mistakes sure. He is not the football man, football men let him down.

72 - I think you mean O'Leary at Leeds.

It's an interesting question whether Murray or Advocaat are more to blame for Rangers' current poverty (in both money and trophies).

Personally, I don't think you can blame Advocaat for spending the money that he was given. Chairmen are supposed to plan for the long term financial futures of their clubs, not managers.

If Leeds can survive their ordeal, so can Rangers, but all the signs point to thin gruel indeed being served up at Ibrox for many a season to come.

No.72

Football men let Murray down...please explain who? and How?

On a lighter note, has anyone seen Sebo in today's Sun? He looks like he has lost about 3 stone! Seriously, i didnt recognise him when i flicked past. Also his new bird is hot.

75 - Sebo lost three stone?

Was it from his head?

I wonder what this new, lower-centre-of-gravity Filip Sebo will do to SPL defences next year?

Can't wait! :)

No.73

Phil, I think the time has come for Rangers and their fans to face the music. Rangers are no longer a BIG club.

Their squad is full of second rate players.

They have done nothing significant in Europe.

They have a Fan as the manager. Someone who has acheived nothing in European or world football. And only achieved domestically when he had 100 million while the rest had a few million.

Their so called loyal fans will soon start disappearing just like they did during the Greig days, when they hounded their "greatest ever player from the club"

Their fans have shown they are no longer going to put money into the club.

The point is this, Rangers are NO longer a BIG club. They don't have big budgets, nor big ambitions, or big players or a renowned management team.

As the domination continues, I can see Ibrox slowly becoming a white elephant.

Just over 100 years ago, Rangers were on a par with about six other clubs financially and in fan base. It was only the rise of the great Celtic 6 in row side that galvanised Rangers into having big ambitions (to compete with celtic was the main one in sectarian scotland at that time) before Celtic's 6 in a row team, teams like clyde thistle, queens park and hearts were the opposition.

Rangers are going back to those days when they were just another club. Next season I think Aberdeen and Hearts will pose a bigger threat. Rangers will be lucky to finish in the top three.

#72 Is Murray the financial controller though and is it Rangers current financial position which so hampers their progress?

What, in your opinion, is your solution for Rangers. Keep blameless Murray in place and go through some lean years in the cycle or sell out to the line of potential investors currently waiting to rescue the gers?

77 - They'll always be big in Ayrshire, and the mental parts of Northern Ireland where they paint the kerbs red, white, and blue.

Can anyone tell me when the draw for the CL qualifying rounds, will be held?

#76 At least a stone from his nut, he has a different head shape! Just shows how much excess he was carrying last year.

Oh Oh see Tim is off on his Celtic were responsible for bringing sectarianism into Scottish football argument again, change the record, we all agree with your argument. Yes there was no sectarianism in Scottish football until Celtic were founded. Can you let it lie now Tim?

#77 - 'They have a Fan as the manager. Someone who has acheived nothing in European or world football.' - you realise that this statement will incur the wrath of Media1, the world's No.1 Walterphile?

#73 sorry it's weel past beer o clock here and OLeary is the man.

Bringing in #78.

Working in any private industry there is an accountability. If someone repaetedly gives you money to achieve a goal (e.g CL credibility) and you don't deliver (i.e Advocaat) then you lose your job.

Billy Mcneil and Davie Hay lost their jobs for losing the league to Rangers. Big
billy in a bloody car park. So why do Advocaat and Wattie before them keep theirs.

#74 I wasn't talking to you as you are, like too many on this board, less interested in debate and more interested in point scoring.

Re all this rubbish about fiscal responsibility, who did a better share issue etc, remember Rangers are not a Plc they're a Private Ltd Co whose shares are not traded on the open market, you're comparing apples with pears there are different rules and regulations.

Also re the Celtic share issue, interesting how the Celtic supporters raise £13m for a new training ground, which an article on here values the said training ground at £7m. Anyone got a calculator?

Let's not pretend.

The CL money is vital to both clubs.

It is indeed, the only place, on the field, where good money can be made.

There can be no real argument that Rangers, at this moment, need that money more then Celtic do.

But make no mistake, it would be a big blow to Celtic to miss out, too.

And that is possible. For Rangers to negotiate 2 rounds, and Celtic to fall, leaving Rangers alone to represent Scotland in the coming season's group stages. It's all about early season form and luck of the draw.

Personally, I'd love both teams to make it. That would raise Scotland's profile and boost the coffers of both clubs. Anybody with the interests of Scottish football at heart would want that.

Unfortunately, most of you don't.

No.80

I think it's 9th August for the 3rd Draw

I have been looking at teams in the 3rd draw and it is not pleasant reading.

In the draw are:

valencia
sevilla
arsenal
liverpool
spartak moscow
anderlecht
werder bremem
dinamo bucharest
Ajax

and numerous others.

I don't want to be pessimistic but the old firm will have their work cut out getting into the group stages.

What I don't understand is how a team like Celtic have to even play a qualifier. They finished second in their group last season, won their own league and reached the last 16 yet they are thrown into a qualifier.

Should be interesting.

ps. No.82...keep taking the tabs. Your pain is tangible.

#77

Celtic were in a far worse state and managed to turn it around. Although I am not naive enough to think that we dont have some rough times ahead.

"They have a Fan as the manager. Someone who has acheived nothing in European or world football."
Whilst you have the great Strachan who has acheived so much more?

On the player stakes you have two players on a higher level than rangers, Nakamura and Boruc, who without you wouldnt have won the league. Check out Nakamura's assists and the amount of times Boruc won u the points e.g sheep shagg*rs.

Undoubtably Celtic are ahead at the moment butsome of the claims being made by tic fans are just plain silly.

No.84

It was Big Billy who GOT the job in the car park, he didn't lose it there. GET THE FACTS RIGHT MATE!

Another club who are a Private Ltd co as opposed to a Plc are Manchester Utd, whose turnover last year was £168m, three times that of Rangers, but whose owner has put them into debt to the tune of £650m with interest payments reportedly £62m per annum.

Are the Manchester Utd fans worried or are they too busy still celebrating taking the Premiership from Chelsea?

#87

Some tricky ties no doubt, both teams would struggle against most of those teams.

Re Celtic having to play a qualifier, it must be Murray's influence stretching the world over again eh?

No, 88

Strachan played in 2 world cup finals. Smith didn't even play one international match.

Strachan won FA cups and leagues on both sides of the border. Smith won nothing as a player.

Strachan played in many European matches and won two european medals. Smith rarely (if at all) played against European opposition.

Strachan successfully managed teams south of the border, Smith failed in one attempt at Everton.

Strachan has taken a scottish team further than any team in the CL. Smith hasn't.

So in answer to your question No.88....YES Strachan has achieved so much more than Smith in football. WHS is respected in European footballing circles.

Smith is just a fan who was given an open cheque book when all the other clubs had nothing. Not difficult to win domestic prizes in those circs.

Sorry # 89. you are right and obviously doing business in the car park on a positive note is OK. Bottom line is two Celtic legends, and we can go back to Stein if you want, lost their jobs for not beating rangers.

Advocaat and Smith should have gone for not achieving Euro success when Celtic were not a factor. Thats what I mean by Football men letting Murray down.

anyway I wisny talking to you.

Relax bhoys.

My information is that both Celtic and Rangers (if they qualify) will be seeded in the 3rd round, so will miss those teams.

Hello Bluenose, Yes it is sobering, and worrying, I just feel we are being left behind, Oh and I don’t mean behind the Celtic, they are in the same boat, even if ours is a dinghy and theirs is a yacht at the movement,. I mean the big picture

JPF, right on the nail

Slaine, A good comment about the European and English game, oh and fair comment from you to put aside the gloating, but in reality Scottish football has no future, ever since TV and SKY

Well Kent : I agree mate, we will never be welcomed, why should we be, they don’t need us, also I should say that to my mind Rangers should have had a team in the conference years ago (and it still not to late), for me that’s the only true path to the English league, who are we to expect anything different

Bosco, I remember those bad days with the Celtic, and although you may find it hard to believe, I was pleased when you pulled yourself through, don’t get me wrong, I just hate your lot when we play you,,,, but I would hate it more if you weren’t around!!!!
Oh and fair comments about your gloating, and football rivalry, exactly that’s the game ,,, oh and don’t worry I will be the first entry into the Guinness book of gloaters when we win the league next season

Mavro buddy, my points were made because I love the Rangers, I know you are only poking a bit of fun but there is a serious side to it, are you genuinely happy as a fellow bluenose to see how our club is being run, or should I say “run down”.

oh and by the way, we change the colours of our jersey about twice a year. (I’ve seen blues, grays, whites, oranges and wait for it, yes reds, (I still can’t figure out how any Rangers fan would wear a red jersey, but there ya go) What I said was pick the right design and stick with it. Show a bit of class, can you imagine making a collection of jerseys with the years printed below the crest. Why do they print the years on cup the final jersey if that’s a bad idea. Concerning our

87. Certainly some tough teams there, but I think Celtic are seeded and so will most of the list you gave. I think Rangers will also be seeded as well if they make through (which I think they will).

# 92 " Strachan has taken a Scottish (sic) team further than any in the CL"

Pardon me not further than any would be better than winning it?????

And Rangers did last 16 one year before you mob.

PS Strachan sucess at Coventry - explain.

I dont think the original thread compared playing statistics. Think Mourinho.

tough luck Pushkin.

Beat you to it with #94

Stopped looking at the Scotsman post a few weeks ago after some of the inane drivel of nearly neurotic and other idiots. Today thought I would have a look and see if these internet clowns had gone and maybe just maybe I could read a post and get a bit of insight into the pre season banter in Scotland. Unfortunately and in common with many of these forums it is still taken over by a small amount of offensive immature children who simply ruin a good idea by their lack of behavior. Gone forever.

#97

I'm sure TM will point to the extra time in the San Siro as proof of WGS taking Celtic 30 mins further than Rangers in the CL.

that's how bad it can get on here.

I personally think that WS's 92/93 campaign was very obviously the best CL peformance by a Scottish team so far.

Only the most biased of Celtic fans could say otherwise.

Facts

Strachan v Smith Scottish Football Managerial records.

Strachan has won 4 out of 6 competitions
Success rate 66%

Smith has 13 out of 25 competitions
Success rate 52%

And for the record:

O'Neill success rate = 47%
McLeish success rate = 58%

Can anyone tell me when Murray Park will start churning out the young Scottish talent expected. Considering the hefty investment made by DM and the current financial plight faced by the club, surely its about time that his plan-b, began to bear some fruit. Or is this just a further example of his bling-bling stewardship of the club, its a pity all his jewellery was bought from Ratners, or maybe he could have pawned some of it, to ease their escalating debts.

No.97

I thought you weren't talking to me?

#92

Thought we were talking about managerial credentials?

No doubt was some player and did ok in England as a manager but nothing special.

Ok, has won two in a row in Scotland but with no challenge from a very poor rangers team. Also however much some fans deny it there is a large section of the celtic support not convinced.

#99
Cheerio then.

#102

I assume you're being "ironic".

but in case you're not.

Alan McGregor, Alan Hutton, Chris Burke, Stephen Smith, Charlie Adam.

And, of course, behind them, the reigning Youth League and Cup Double winners.

100...BE

92/93 was a good run and yes more successful than both OF recent attempts, but it was not the same tourney as it is today, the group stages made it easier to remain in the tourney longer. For example, had Celtic got to the last sixteen and the tourney format was the same as 92/93 then Celtic would have been in a group of four battling it out for a semi final place. So no knock out phase in the last 16 or last 8.

If Celtic were to win the champions league there is an argument that would say it would be better than 1967. Though I personally, don't think it would be better than that achievement. Stein didn't buy a team whereas Strachan has bought a team.

And yes going to extra time in the san siro does equal going further than before. Sad I know for you to accept but true nonetheless.

105...yeah Cheerio...

phew that was a close escape!

#86
Bemused, I, too, would like both Celtic and Rangers to qualify for the CL. I would also like to see Rangers win it just so that I can come back on this messageboard in 40 years time and say that it was meaningless, that Rangers are no better than Steau Bucharest or Nottingham Forest and that winning more domestic trophies than anyone else is much better than once being the best team in Europe. i.e. the usual old guff that you come out with when anyone refers to Celtic's 1967 success.

#103 trying not too but you just give me too much ammo.

Your stats are no doubt correct. Ergo strachan is a more successful manager than MON. On paper yes but long term still to be decided.

Smith vs Strachan in the playing stakes is irrelevant. We are talking managerial and you are making comaprisons over 2 years as opposed to 11 - 15. Time will tell.

i am definitely not talking to you.

What a pointless article. The season prior to that Rangers got the last 16 of the CL and Celtic were completely out of Europe prior to it even beginning.

No story here! But I do hope both teams do well in the upcomming CL so that Scotlands co-eficient is bettered.

#106#

Alan Mc Gregor, Alan Hutton, Chris Burke, Stephen Smith, Charlie Adam etc...

I assume you are being ironic?

I think any of these guys would struggle to hold a seat on the Celtic bench.

110

Are you an IDIOT?

You keep saying you are not not talking to me yet continue to reply. What is your problem man?

My initial statement was not about WGS v WS...originally I said WS was a fan who has no serious credible achievement in the game. It was about WS not WGS. WGS managerial history proves my statement correct.

Now please Canbeara, be a man of your word and do what you say. Stop communicating with me. I canabearit! lol

#88 - misery misery - You Wrote;
"They have a Fan as the manager. Someone who has acheived nothing in European or world football."
Whilst you have the great Strachan who has acheived so much more?"

You see it yourself don't you?
I say that because your posts are usually more intelligent than this dumbest of dumb statements.
Think that Smith can only be judged on his efforts this time round, and then compare...
...add in the fact that Strachan has achieved MORE than he set out to do and has achieved it IMMEDIATELY after his appointment and CONSISTENTLY since his appointment.
...add in the fact that Strachan played in the premiership after his 40th birthday.
...add in the fact that Strachan has rebuilt the team on a shoestring budget and achieved 2 seasons of success before being allowed to splash the cash, THAT'S what Strachan has achieved...

...then compare it to the success story of the dream team up until now, what has Smudger actually done to live up to the claims that he is better than Wee Ginge, well for starters he's won eerrmm well uugghh...

...Nothing, Nada, Noppes, Zilch, Zero and Bupkes...

BUT, he IS building a world class team with such names like Gow and Broadfoot and uumm Thingumyjig and Whatsisname and the Chappie in the tights you know Damarvelous Beastie.......

Interesting the subject of seeding has cropped on this thread as that is itself just another example of fixing that goes on to ensure the elite keep it that way. Can you imagine a sprinter in the 100m being told that since you won the last race so well, we're going to award you with a meter start in the next one? Absolutely ludicrous but that's what the seeding does.

IMHO all names should go into the hat (or whatever) and be drawn strictly at random. If two of the 'elite' come out against other then tough t1tty, but as that is unlikely to please the self-serving elite, it is not going to happen. There is no level playing field - the gravy train has left and we in the SPL (even Celtic) have missed it.

No.92

You asked about WGS managerial record at Coventry. Well here is his complete record from managing in England

Team Pl W L D Success Rate

Coventry - 215 70 89 56 32.55%

South'ton - 110 39 39 32 35%

Bear in mind that WGS had very little money in both these positions and in his penultimate season at Southampton he took them to the top 6, into Europe and reached the FA Cup Final.

Smith's Everton record where he had a lot of money. Certainly more than Southampton gave Strachan.

Team Pl W L Success Rate

Everton 168 53 65 31.5%

I rest my case.

Its a joke listening to the fans of possibly the worlds two largest nothing teams..

One apparently has money, the other has the most domestic sliverware yet both remain pish poor outwith Scotland...Neither team is better than the other for longer than 6 or 7 seasons with the odd 9 here and there, yet both are supposedly way more successful than the other,,,,hahahahaha!

Poor wee OF teams eh! Both are diabolical and utterly out of their depth in Europe..But both think they are giants....hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

#114

You make a fairly obvious point that Strachan has accomplished more than Smith THIS time round. Given that Smith has only been here 6mths and was out of all but one competitions it wouldnt be hard would it? That wasnt the debate, as you kindly posted i am more intelligent than to try and argue that.
Strachan has defeated a very poor Rangers team twice, and fair play you can only beat what is in front of you. How many out of his 30 odd signings have been a genuine success?
As posted before, its nothing to do with his playing career but in my opinion he has it all to do before he is considered a great manager.
And for the record i dont see Smith as the longterm future for rangers. He has been brought in to steady the ship and get us competing again which i have no doubt that he will.

AAaaahhhhhhh...
...Feck it, I'm suffering from Closed Season Post Fitba Boredom Syndrome, that last post is so full ae holes ye cud strain veg wi' it...

...ahm off tae re-paint ma table fitba players shirts ready for the new season.......

2 points:

The spin in this article is good stuff. Ignore the TV income if you want but for their 5 home games RFC probably got 0.5 -1m per game. So comparing like with like the difference is not £10m but say £6m.

Also the Co-eff points won is not the same thing. Celtic got about 11 points last season but Benfica (who we put out of the CL) got more because of their run in the UEFA cup. And Celtic got 20+ points when we went to Seville.

The essence of the piece though is that rich clubs in big countries get richer. There's no news there. The only solutions for Celtic and Rangers are to have some form of Atlantic League (ie form a league which can compete witht eh big countries) or join the EPL. I prefer the former.

#119 - Ah wud like tae apoalagise fer the absolutely diaboalical post at #114, full ae holes, limper than Gay Gordons wrist and no even funny...

...ah think ah'm gonnae huvtae gi the missus wan the night as punishment but.......

No.119 JJ

Very poor Rangers side? er...they were champions when WGS took over. That same very poor Rangers team reached the CL last 16 for the first time ever.

Meanwhile, WGS inherited an aging squad that 14 players had left just as WGS arrived. When WGs arrived the squad size was 12 players most of them past their best. Then to follow up, in his first competitive game WGS suffered the worst ever result in Celtic's history.

Come JJ you know better than that. Give WGS some credit.

Jealousy - pity you forgot to remind Slain that Walter has won 2 out of 2 against the mighty Celtic - home and away - in his short time at the club. Too late to pick up any trophies, of course but you'd think it might have been enough to inject some realism to "TGFITW".
Still why spoil their close-season delusion ? They're obviously at their happiest when stirring themselves into a great mad-cap frenzy about how the world's going to fall in on Rangers (remember for example how the Gers were going to be closed down by UEFA during the season ?)
I'm happy enough to let Walter do the talking on the pitch. He did a decent enough job throughout the 1990's - he did a decent enough job at the breezeblock beggardome a few months ago. Sure Rangers haven't splashed the cash so far this summer but a Hibbee and an Italian reject haven't exactly got me quaking in my boots just because 7-odd million has been thrown at them !

...Aye that's right an' aw' ye get him tellt Tim ya beauty...

...but it's too late fur me, ah'm no gettin' out of gi'en the missus wan ah couldnae stand the guilt besides she knows, she'd jist hunt me down.......

#122 Slaine, nae bother mate, close season sends all a bit doolally! ;)

That missus of yours is one lucky lady!

#123 Tim

Right here go's. Strachan does deserve some credit.

126...JJ

God that sounded painful...lol

#127

It was, defo no doing that again!

#100# And what Cl would that have been ,I know you think you know it all but your knowledge of "FITBA" is zilch!

#126 JJ - Ye dinnae know the hauf ae' it, ah wus so blooterd when ah met her that ah didnae realise ah wus talkin tae her erse and by the time ah wus sobered up it was tae late, we'd already been to Gretna and back in her truck...

...aw naw it's all comin' back tae haunt me, where did ah put that boatle.......

#130

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Abused Sexpile.

Thinks he's a know it all. He claims he's a writer. He must have writers block everyday, cos he's always on this feckin site, day and night. Probably has a multi-personality disorder.

A dick by day, a tosser by night.

His poor kids.

#131 Slaine

Yet another generations of good looking tims on the way then?

Media 1 118

"Poor wee OF teams eh! Both are diabolical and utterly out of their depth in Europe. But both think they are giants"

CFC has in recent years taken the scalps of:

Barcelona,
Liverpool,
Juventus,
Porto,
Stuggart,
Celta Vigo,
Lyon,
Benfica
and the mighty Man utd to name but a few.

Please, please keep your comments based on facts and not on your deep loathing of the great institution and world wide phenomenon that is
Celtic Football Club.

You really should stick to the political and religion threads as you may get away with talking shi*e without anyone noticing.

...aye cannae miss

#118# Shockaroony an you a bangers orc and president of skinted murray's fanny club,such treachery!

...ah jist hope that hunchback's no haredy uuhhm horida aahh hirody ah feck it...

...ahjist hope that hunchback's no catchin' but.......

132 Concha

For God's sake man, don't mention his kids.

You will now be treated to his 'Holier Than Thou' defamation and ridicule that he handed out to another poster on Saturday.

BE is well informed and is not a bigot, its just that he can't enter into the true spirit of genuine football discussion/debate as he suffers from Jesus Syndrome and considers this forum as some form of therapy to flex his intellectual footie muscles and score cheap and predictable points off fellow human beings.
We can only speculate at how his missus treats him at home.

Pity, I for one thought he had so much potential.

Have a nice day Y'all

#63
How can we take your list seriously.
Hillary Weston is the wife of Galen Weston a Canadian
from Toronto where the family made its wealth as the owners of Canada's food retailing giants.
So much for the authenticity of the lists!!

Canberrabear
How can you criticise a chairman that supports a manager in the transfer market but also criticise Celtic's previous "biscuit tin mentatility" and Rangers current parsimony.

Surely getting the balance right is preferable. But, when buying players at the start of a league campaign, there is no guarantee of success. It's a gamble and not a straightforward business decision.

However, Rangers are paying for previous profligacy and Celtic are enjoying a strong financial foundation from which to strengthen their team.

Welcome to a Generation of Domination

Anyone blamed Catholic schools yet?

140 Ian Walker

I don't make the rules up or design the criteria for entrants, that would be down to The Sunday Times as the facts come from the:
Sunday Times Rich List

Sorry if you don't like what the say.

#134

You need to be consistent to win a competition, instead of picking out teams you've beaten. Not much good if you can't win away from home though, is it? You beat Liverpool in 2003, yet they went on, only 2 years later, to win the big one.

You have to look at both sides of the coin, rather than the biased one.
Celtic have had some good scalps, but so has most teams.
Celtic were also BEATEN by:

Basle
Copenhagan
Shaktar Donesk
and the mighty A. Bratislava

Celtic have done more than Rangers in Europe (not hard, Middlesborugh have done better than the Rankers)) but you have to look at it from a neutral.

For example, look at all the great teams Holland have beaten over the years, yet they're still waiting for their first world cup.

Don't wanna be a killjoy Bosco. You are right in some ways.

Artmedia played Celtic then Rangers, which team failed to beat them at home or away?

#145

Rangers.

But over 2 legs Celtic also failed.

So credit should be given to Artmedia Bratislava

Can someone explain the actual question in #130?

I think its directed towards me, but it's hard to make sense of.

Seldom was a poster more aptly named.

144 Concha

I'm not saying Celtic's European record is impeccable but what I’m doing with the stats is demonstrating that we are not as Media 1 put it
"diabolical and utterly out of their depth"

We have, on many occasions been woeful and on other European evenings we have been superb but to say we have been out of our depth is plainly wrong.

IF the best of Scotland, whether it be CFC or RFC fails to live up to the standards of Europe what does that say about the pitiful opposition they have to overcome to get into Europe?

You know what this thread is missing? Humour!

Anyone got Donald Findley's number, he's got some good jokes. Should lighten the thread up a bit!

Snooooooooooooooooooooooze

FAir point.

Diabolical is a bit strong.

As for RAngers, your success must hurt them deeply, especially more recently with teams like Middlesborough doing something in Europe, and Rangers still sitting at home.

Predictions.

I think Rangers will scrape through to the CL proper and finish bottom, and probably banned from Europe for next season.

For Celtic, I see a quarter final place at best. But its a good way to keep up the good name of your club.

Celtic and Rangers, unfortunately, are the poor relations of European football when compared to the big leagues.

They don't have the finances to compete, despite Celtic's claims of financial rude health.

They'll both occasionally make a minor ripple in Eurpe, by not only qualifying for the CL group stage, but actually successfully negotiating it, as Celtic did last season, and Rangers the season before.

We need to savour these small achievements when they come along, for they are a long way from guaranteed.

Concha 153

Do you think fans of RFC will let their club down again?

It seems absurd that this significant minority would be allowed to jeopardise the future revenues of such a large organisation.

I just think they're skating on very thin ice at the moment and don't forget, mud sticks.

Its taking the English ages to shake off the hooliganism tag, and another reason why I think UEFA wouldn't think twice banning Rangers, because it wouldn't do the competition any harm.

They're not a MAdrid or a Liverpool. They wouldn't dream of banning the "big" teams. The italians have been getting away with violence and racism for years.

RAngers are like a blue shark.

Put them in a tank full of squids and small fish, they can rule that tank. But put them in with the Great White, the Mako and the Tiger sharks, they're in for a rough time. I think the CL is too big for Rangers for the moment.

155

they're bad.

but then...it's a club built on badness.

Interesting sleight of hand there, #156.

You take a question based on the behaviour of Rangers fans, begin by addressing it (sort of), but then manage to turn it around to enable yourself to have another bash at the team instead.

I don't think either half of the OF would care about the CL being "too big" for them. They'd simply want to be there for the glamour, prestige and financial benefits.

-147- Thats easy bemused and bewildered,Elmer was simply pointing out that the champions league did not start until season 92/93,hope that corrects your slovenly error,I think top Fudd should have put you know fuk all!

#157 be careful you'll have Tim Malloy on here telling you how it was Celtic who introduced sectarianism into Scottish football, before Celtic Scottish football was sectarianism free.

The argument goes, no Celtic, no sectarianism in Scottish football.

Just think every club in Scotland booed a Celtic player for 7 years because of sectarianism, no Celtic, no Celtic player therefore no sectarianism. Tims' argument makes sense to me and he's no lover of Rangers, he's a Celtic fan I think.

Oh I get it now #157, you're using street slang as in bad is actually good.

For others I'll translate #157 for you, what is actually being said is

155

they're good

but then....it's a club build on goodness

that's much clearer isn't it, grammar isn't too great but we'll forgive you.

obviously built not build! oops sorry and there was me trying to clear things up.

#161

MAybe its not street slang.

MAybe he's a little more educated than you, and doesn't use street slang.

I think the original post is what it says. Because a club built on goodness wouldn't be staring at a potential UEFA ban now, would it son?

#162

That's my "education" theory correct then.

Why do Celtic have to pre qualify this year when last year they went straight into the group stages and reached the last 16?
Surely they should be seeded this year!!

# 158 B.E.

The last time that Rangers were in the draw for the CL i said to many of my friends and work colleagues who support RFC and have season tickets for Ibrox....." you will enjoy the great atmosphere of the big European nights and even have the opportunity to visit some European cities. The response from so many of them was incredible...." we will not enjoy it , we will endure it"....and that was from the intelligent fans.... True.

Time to clock off hombres

Le vere manana por la manana. Hasta luego gringos

I had to remind myself what the original report was about - the uneven financial playing field in Europe but, as ever, this thread has deteriorated into the usual sectarian rubbish. Very sad!

160...surprised your ugly head is still rearing itself around here.

Anyway, let's BLAME THE VICTIM thats a good idea.

You know if wasn't for those Jews there would be no holocaust.

And if it wasn't for those black slaves there would be no Ku Klux Klan.

I could go on, but you are not worth the time or effort. Now go away and play with yourself I can tell you are an expert in that field.

Don't bother replying as soon as I see your name I will just skip to the next post.

Disappear moron, you're ignored for life.

#163 interesting point you raise my dear condescending fellow.

In order to answer that you'd need to investigate further a few fundamental points.

The first being that any club which breaks any of UEFA's rules can receive a ban, therefore, all clubs within the UEFA structure are staring at a potential ban, therefore are all clubs built on badness?

All English clubs were banned from UEFA competitions a few years back so are all English clubs built on badness?

Was it Feyenord who were thrown out of the UEFA cup last season for the actions of their fans? Are they built on badness?

You see my dear chap, the question isn't as straight-forward as you think.

James TCB 160
you said

2The argument goes, no Celtic, no sectarianism in Scottish football.

Just think every club in Scotland booed a Celtic player for 7 years because of sectarianism, no Celtic, no Celtic player therefore no sectarianism."

On the basis of that logic, if no blacks lived in 1960's Alabama then no KKK and no rascism.

Ye, that makes complete sense now, cheers!

#169 you're letting your education down.

I have never at any point said sectarianism doesn't exist, I've never condoned it, I've only agreed with you that Celtic introduced it to Scottish football, before Celtic sectariansim did it exist but not in Scottish football. That is what you said.

Name calling is the usual retort for all the non-Rangers fans on here, especially when they enter a debate/argument and are beaten hands down.

I feel your pain, you must be so ashamed of yourself.

#171 I hadn't thought of that but I suppose you're right.

Doesn't make it realistic though does it?

#159# befuked and befuddled must be away searching the stats to prove you wrong,when in fact you are spot on,there again when did facts ever bother befuddled. General knowledge since the KKK has been mentioned,guess who formed them ?

172 James TCB

Sectarianism existed in Scotland before football and before RFC and the creation of Celtic.

The founding of Celtic in 1888 only provided the growing sectarian 'brigade' in Scotland a very visible target to galvanise and embolden the grassroots with.

" those damn fenians need put in their place"
is that not how it goes?

172

How many known Catholics did The Rangers FC play in their first team in the 40 years after WW2?

PAT ROLLER

I said 92/93.

So what are you people on about?

So Fudd makes his usual errors and the idiot crew of Diddy and Roller just fall in and look equally stupid behind him.

Saves me a job, I suppose.

"The outstanding behaviour of Celts in Milan" (151)

Celtic were fined by UEFA for bottle-throwing inside the San Siro - and there was more bottle-throwing by Celtic fans outside the stadium, at the media bus.

179

More truth avoidance?

Suggestion: answer openly & honestly.

Try it!!!

How many times in the last 6 months has Tuxado knowingly asked this question?

Come on, somebody must know.

Not one of you?

Truth inconvenient, is it?

Shame on you.

182

Thommo

Aye...true....but STILL our behaviour is far far better than the hordes that follow follow Europe's leading anti Catholic Club.

183

A rather innovative truth avoidance tactic.

Highly entertaining....even if it is a wee bit predictable.

LOL!

John has taken over the thread.

Like a latter-day crusading Dracula, he moves in as afternoon gives way to evening.

Sadly, he's actually an improvement on some of the fools who've been populating this thread today, trying to corrct me on a mistake that I didn't even make!

Of course, we had this discussion the other evening, John, and the answer is one.

And, yes, it certainly is shameful.

As I said at the time. Thank god that since 1990, under the ownership of David Murray, Rangers have corrected the problem, and now utilise no religious or sectarian bigotry whatsoever with regard to player recruitment.

187

BE

One known Catholic in forty years.

Thanks.

Next question: why?

Why only one?

#79, what do you know about Ayrshire , doughnut.

to think a poster gave me a row..(chucky i think..) for suggesting that these threads which descend into tims/huns type "debate" are pretty tedious....here is another great example ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"CFC is built on charity and goodness to feed starving paupers in the east end in the 1880". (#151)

Part of the reason for Celtic's founding was to keep poor Catholics away from the Protestant churches, who were only trying to help them.

192

Celtic were formed to feed the starving paupers in the east end of Glasgow. Others had offered food to the starving but it was conditional help: dependent on their giving up the one true faith.

191

tinms\huns?

correction: good v evil.

"Others had offered food to the starving but it was conditional help: dependent on their giving up the one true faith." (193)

Untrue. They were not asked to give up their faith.

195

Tell me more. My information is that they were asked to relinquish Catholicism and become Protestants.

Not at all, #196. Your accusations are false.

197

Anything to back up your claim, Boberto, or do you just want to repeat it until you convince yourself?

January 1888, the following statement was released.
CELTIC FOOTBALL AND ATHLETIC CLUB Celtic Park, Parkhead (Corner of Dalmarnock and Janefield Streets) Patrons His Grace the Archbishop of Glasgow and the Clergy of St Mary's, Sacred Heart and St Michael's Missions, and the principal Catholic laymen of the East End.
The above Club was formed in November 1887, by a number of Catholics of the East End of the City. The main object is to supply the East End conferences of the St Vincent de Paul Society with funds for the maintenance of the 'Dinner Tables' of our needy children in the Missions of St Mary's, Sacred Heart and St Michael's. Many cases of sheer poverty are left unaided through lack of means. It is therefore with this principal object that we have set afloat the 'Celtic' and we invite you as one of our ever-ready friends to assist in putting our new Park in proper working order for the coming football season.
We have already several of the leading Catholic football players of the West of Scotland on our membership list. They have most thoughtfully offered to assist in the good work. We are fully aware that the 'elite' of football players belong to this City and suburbs, and we know that from there we can select a team which will be able to do credit to the Catholics of the West of Scotland as the Hibernians have been doing in the East.
Again there is also the desire to have a large recreation ground where our Catholic young men will be able to enjoy the various sports which will build them up physically, and we feel sure we will have many supporters with us in this laudable object.'

You're the one making the accusation against the Protestant churches, TuxAdo (#198). It's up to you to back it up. Otherwise, it is worthless.

#199 just shows how utterly steeped in Catholicism Celtic was from the very start, unlike Rangers FC which was formed by some young men purely for the love of the game of football.

But wasn't Suvuw the greatest football achievement of this century?

No, only on Planet Tim.

210

Surely Celtic's roots in feeding paupers and Catholicism is commendable?

If you have a problem with that then you have a problem.

200

Firstly, the activities of the Presbyterians were a great concern, given that the Protestant Church was also active in feeding and attending to the poor of the East End, while simultaneously trying to 'snare away' Brother Walfrid's flock. Brother Walfrid enjoyed a close and warm relationship with his Protestant cousins, but he was also fearful of tactics that he'd witnessed in his homeland, Ireland, of turning the poor against the Catholic Church.

Secondly, poverty was worsening - dramatically and horrifically so. Brother Walfrid needed to do more!

Arguably, there were four main ingredients that had to be introduced into the embryonic idea of Celtic - charity (to feed and clothe the East End's poverty- stricken), religion (to assist the Catholic Church in fighting off the unwelcome advances of Protestantism, when people were at their most vulnerable and therefore most amenable to suggestion, and also of course to cement the relationship of trust, compassion and caring between the Catholic Church and its flock), culture (to provide a much needed focus, identity and symbol for the Irish Catholic population of Glasgow) and, of course, politics.

The charitable aspirations and intentions of Brother Walfrid and Brother Dorotheus are well established. Others would become involved with this philanthropy.
Undoubtedly, Walfrid was also aware of the ever-increasing influence of the Protestant Church in Glasgow's East End and of the dangers that entailed, as far as he and the Archdiocese of Glasgow were concerned. He would also have been alarmed at the extremes of anti-Catholic prejudice within the endemic Scottish community and also within the Protestant Church - ironic, given its simultaneous benevolence towards the Irish Catholics of the East End - and also the gradual rise of Orange-ism in Glasgow.

Arguably, there were four main ingredients that had to be introduced into the embryonic idea of Celtic - charity (to feed and clothe the East End's poverty- stricken), religion (to assist the Catholic Church in fighting off the unwelcome advances of Protestantism, when people were at their most vulnerable and therefore most amenable to suggestion, and also of course to cement the relationship of trust, compassion and caring between the Catholic Church and its flock), culture (to provide a much needed focus, identity and symbol for the Irish Catholic population of Glasgow) and, of course, politics.

205

Yep.....cos you know I'll wipe the floor either of you.

You feign the supposed restraint of a moderate but we both know that if you engage me in debate re the filthy, disgusting institution that is The Rangers FC I will wipe the floor with you.

200

Boberto

So....there you go, Boberto...

there's no shortage of material to support my comment.

You got anything to support your position......or will you just run and hide like Oh Yeah!!! suggested in #205?

I agree with 191. This thread is as boring as the Scotman's fitba stories. Usually the only reason to come here is for the banter.

As Johnny Rotton said, "Boring, Sidney, boring, boring, boring."

Where does your "material" come from Tuxado? (With link please.)

We can see that Celtic were a divisive influence in Scottish football and Scottish society from the very beginning, wanting to keep Catholics separate from Protestants.

209

Cant see ANY religious crap here, Oh Yeah!!!

Boberto made some stupid comments about the formation of Celtic, and I corrected him.

He doubted me, and I produced evidence to support my comments.

He ran away.

211

Boberto

Where does YOUR material come from, Boberto?

Oh...hold on...you havent brought any!!! LOL!!!

So come on, Boberto....where is it?

Substantiate your claim.

211

True to form you spice your ignorance with YET ANOTHER lie.

There is NOTHING to suggest "Celtic were a divisive influence in Scottish football and Scottish society from the very beginning, wanting to keep Catholics separate from Protestants."

That's just yer wee lie.

Guys,

Do you never get ashamed of your reliance on lies to make your case here?

I admire your audacity and your loyalty (to Europe's leading anti Catholic Club) but how do you live with yourselves with these catalogues of lies?

Oh, BTW guys....#188 @ 1804 lies unanswered. I guess it was taking you into that truth zone you soooooo despise.

Did anyone else read that Celtic are still in teh hunt for N'Daw? This is a fitba thread, right?

Isn't there a religion page or maybe a website where one can bring up religious and ethnic tedium for some of you guys?

187

BE

Your closing comments re Davie are largely true, but you have skilfully avoided confronting the whole truth about Davie!

1/ With anti Catholic discrimination in player acquisition ended, why did Davie acquiesce in thousands of scvm chanting\singing vile anti Catholic anthems for so long?

2/ We saw significant progress in season 06\07 - but why not before? Why did he have to be FORCED to act by decent people? Why didnt he take these actions 5 ywears ago? 10 years ago?

And finally one for you guys...

With Davie acquiescing in RFC hard earned position as leading anti Catholic football Club in Europe, why do YOU choose to support them.....when there are scores of decent Clubs?

216

David

I dont see any RELIGIOUS stuff!

We're talking about BIGOTRY.

BIGOTRY in FOOTBALL.

The days when RFCs and their fans filthy behaviour were "unspoken" have passed.

Truth's out now!!!

218

No bun fight.

No religion.

Just an exposure of the bigotry of The Rangers FC and their fans.

Just bemuses me that people still resist the truths I post here.

Why defend it?

Why lie about it?

Face it!!!

Face the truth!!!

Well, Rangers fans seem to make the case for being more obxonious, at least by the number of incidents in which the UEFA has to step in. But the whole thing is still boring. Can't wait until the games start.

Tuxado posts his mysterious "material" to try to back up his accusation, then can't or won't tell us where the "material" comes from and give us a link to it. Classic.

Wow! Came back to take a look - Mistake!
Where's the humour gone? I'm off.......

Started of this article and thread meaning to post on the merits (or anti-merits) of the Champions League v UEFA Cup.

But have pretty much lost heart now (well about 30 posts in actually)

Will have a go anyway although seeing Tuxedo starting up his little Friday debate on a Tuesday almost made me lose the will to live let alone type.

Was going to wax lyrical on the good old days of European nights of the European Cup, Cup Winners Cup & UEFA Cup, all of which I loved.

But now all lost to the all consuming cash cow of money and media hype that is the Champions (ha ha) league. It's portrayed as the be-all and end-all of everything and in reality can be won by about 8 different clubs - how truly exciting.

And everything, EVERYTHING else HAS TO pale into insignificance.

But we all seem to buy into it.

67 was a fantastic achievment, truly fantastic but at times it seems that a lot of Celtic fans are actually secretly happy that it will probably never be repeated by another Scottish club if things stay the same.

Makes me sad personally.

Yeah of course the CL can be great but we seem to have lost all kind of perspective.

Money and glory for the chosen few, the utra-elite. Not really what I want footie to be about.

The media keeps telling me how fantastic it all is but my own eyes told me that the best Cup I saw all year by a country mile was the UEFA Cup final.

(although I didn't actually see the Hibs lague cup win)

Sadly this doesn't seem to be relevant anymore.

Of sod it I'm away home.

AND it's raining here too!!!!!!!

I dont support any of the OF teams but Rangers and Celtic were conned by The English into forgetting the Atlantic League concept. The big 5 of England,Germany,France ,Italy and Spain did not want another BIG league to take away their potential TV income. A league with Ajax,Benefica,Porto, Brondby, Anderlecht and a 60 million tv audience would be beneficial to Them and to Scotland as a whole. Resurrect the idea as EUFA would be forced to accept it if 6 European leagues wanted it badly. The smaller nations should be allowed this and next on the list would be a East European league for Hungary, Romania,Greece etc

TOP 5 IRELAND'S RICH LIST
Hilary Weston and family (retailing): £4,089m
Sean Quinn and family (quarrying, property and insurance): £3,050m
Sir Anthony and Lady O'Reilly (food, media and inheritance): £1,672m
Denis O'Brien (mobile phones and investment): £1,493m
Dermot Desmond (finance: £1,400m

It's interesting that on that list, No.5 is Celtic's biggest shareholder, No.4 is another major Celtic shareholder, possibly the second biggest.

Just thought I'd bring it back to football because this religious sh*t is doing my head in.

I see Mavis disappeared after I gutted him for the second day in a row. Cowardly, craven gobscheidt.

Tuxedo, mate, give it a rest – you made your point a long time ago. You only give JamesTCB and Boberto an opportunity to parade their ignorance, bigotry and stupidity. Desist!

Seems Pat the Hat doesn't like some of the facts about Celtic's origins being exposed.

Pity that it can never be kept to discussing football, rather than degenerating into religious claptrap on every football thread. You saddo's that are fixated on your particular religion and desperate to prove that yours is better than the other should get a life or just stay in the chapel/church and let others discuss the football.

TJ #188

Only one was good enough to play for Rangers?

TJ, some stats for that period

3 european finals, winning 1.

13 League championships

14 Scottish Cups

13 League Cups

Treble winners 3 or 4 times.

Not a bad record, looks to me as though Rangers were just picking the best available talent, in their opinion that is.

After all, this is a football thread and we're talking football and football is all about opinions, one mans Pele is another mans Wayne Biggins.

No.232 TE – stop dribbling and get yourself a life. You have nothing to contribute.

There is only one sectarian club in Scotland, only one club which ever judged players on their religious beliefs. Step forward Enron FC, better known as Scotland's Shame. They are a club on the southside of Glasgow. You can find your way there by following the wails of their death agony.

Wow! Got a bit carried away there – lol! Time to hit the coffee shop for a large cappuccino and a read of my morning paper. Early retirement is so-o-o enjoyable.

#236 Wow you did go off on one, touch a nerve, all that stuff about Celtic bringing sectarianism into Scottish football.

Just remember Scottish football was free of sectarianism prior to the formation of Celtic FC. It's a fact, Celtic supporters such as Tim Malloy proudly boast about it.

237 JamesTCB – I'll try to make this easy for you to understand. It may be difficult for an avowed religious bigot such as yourself but I'm doing my best.

Celtic were started by the Irish Catholic community to raise funds for the Poor Children's Dinner Table. They were also inclusive from the start, passing a motion that players of all persuasions would be welcomed. In other words, they were Irish and Catholic but non-sectarian. Unless, that is, you believe that to be Irish and Catholic automatically makes one sectarian, which you obviously do.

Scotland's Shame FC, on the other hand, began and continued as a small club which made no impact on the game in Scotland – at least compared to the all-conquering Celtic – until its new chairman, John Ure Primrose, and new manager, Bill Struth, realised, in the early 1920s, that if they became a Protestant-only team, they could amass a huge support from the anti-Catholics in Scotland and challenge Celtic's overwhelming dominance.

So who introduced sectarianism into Scottish football? Answers on a postcard, please.

#238 Why am I a religious bigot, what have I said that's bigotted?

Scotland's Shame FC, etc, is a comment from a balanced observer? I think not. If you want to see a bigot, look in a mirror.

You, TJ, Tim, nn etc are the perfect examples of bigots, your intolerance of all things Rangers, shows a deep-rooted hatred that is truely the shame of Scottish football and you're a disgrace to the club you purport to support.

If to be the opposite of you is to be a bigot, then I'll walk tall and proud, you on the otherhand must be stooped over carrying your shame on your shoulders.

You and your childish friends cannot enter into a discussion/debate without resorting to name-calling when your points are defeated, look at Tim's above name-calling of me and his don't reply I'm not answering you post.

To your final question, who cares, the fact all you can do is look back is symptomatic of the problem, my post of recent weeks have illustrated this. I for one am more concerned with the future and will continue to support all who's efforts are focussed on removing sectarianism from Scottish football.

Stop acting like a child and join the majority of football fans in Scotland and like us look forward and work towards removing it.

Also Tim if you read this, if you do look back at your post which was interpreted by myself and others as Celtic being responsible for introducing sectarianism into Scottish football, you will see that the way you wrote the response this was a reasonable interpretation.

If you had responded that this interpretation was not your intention and rephrased it, instead of resorting to childish name calling, that would've shown you as an adult who can enter debates and discussions.

The fact you've been unable to do this despite the opportunities I've given you to address it, shows the level of your inadequate debating skills.

You'd be out of your depth in a puddle.

239

James TCB

My intolerance is of bigotry.

If that troubles you then you have a problem.

238

Pat

Probably a bit pedantic, but I'll make this point anyway....

RFC had no aspiration to be a Protestant team. They had no particular affection for ANY religion.

No, theirs was a hatred of ONE religious group: Catholics.

That insitutional bigotry and badness is the antithesis of Protestantism. It is evil.

#242 then TJ we share the same intolerance. I have no problem with anyone who has that intolerance.

I also have an intolerance for people who cannot have a reasoned debate and resort to name-calling.

The fact I have a different point of view doesn't make my point of view wrong, just different.

244

James

then why did you call me a bigot in 239?

239

In this noble quest to rid Scottish Football of sectarianism, James, which Club have you chosen to support?

JamesTCB wrote "You, TJ, Tim, nn etc are the perfect examples of bigots, your intolerance of all things Rangers, shows a deep-rooted hatred that is truely the shame of Scottish football and you're a disgrace to the club you purport to support."

So, to be intolerant of Rangers is to be a bigot? To hate Rangers FC is the shame of Scottish football, a disgrace to the club I purport to support? Some might say it was a moral imperative, given their disgusting history of bigotry.

Cop yourself on, Coco. You are making yourself look foolish. What you have said is that Celtic introduced sectarianism into Scottish football by coming into existence. If you had half a brain, you would know how absurd and bigoted such a statement is. The fact that you don't suggests to me that you are so suppurating with hatred of Irishness and Catholicism that you are incapable of rational thought, a condition much evident in those who look for excuses for their support of Scotland's Shame FC.

As was said earlier in the thread, the Jews caused the Holocaust by being Jews, the blacks in the US caused the KKK by being enslaved.

Aye right. Aye ready. Whatever you say, Adolf.

243 Tuxedo – you are, of course, correct.

But you must realise that by continuing to raise the subject, you allow the bigots the excuse (not that they need it) to parade their hatreds and paranoia.

We are so far ahead of them in every aspect – on and off the field – that forcing them to defend their club's deplorable history gives them an excuse not to debate football.

And I prefer to debate football.

Hail! Hail!

248

Aye, Pat, I guess I give them an opportunity to debate in an area where they truly excel: bigotry.