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Glenn Gibbons: Empty seats at so-called big games proves fans are not being fooled

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Published Date: 03 October 2009
EVEN the most fervently triumphal of those Celtic and Rangers fans who crowd into Ibrox tomorrow is likely to reserve at least one small corner of his fevered mind to accommodate a vexing thought. It is the ever-growing realisation that, like a seemingly once-invincible currency, an Old Firm fixture that had appeared impossible to devalue may be heading rapidly and irretrievably towards worthlessness.
The process would have begun, quite insidiously, two or three years ago with the decline of the standard of player now common to each club and would become disconcertingly apparent in this week's outings in Europe.

Most damningly, the impoverishe
d performances in Rangers' 4-1 defeat by Sevilla and Celtic's 1-1 draw with Rapid Vienna (both on their own turf) seemed to have been anticipated by respective supports whose seemingly deepening disenchantment was betrayed by attendances appreciably below capacity.

These phenomena were reminiscent of the Sunday morning at Ibrox in 1976 when Jock Wallace reflected ruefully on the previous day's match and wondered how on earth a Rangers team who had captured the treble just a few months earlier could face a Dundee United side then at the top of the league before a crowd of just 16,000.

This young(ish) reporter suggested that Jock and his players had never recovered from their capitulation in the first round of the European Cup to FC Zurich. The Swiss were hardly giants of the continental game and their 1-1 draw in Glasgow and 1-0 victory in Zurich seemed to confirm the widely-held suspicion – including among many of their own followers – that Rangers had been pretty low-level treble winners.

"Ach, ye're right, kid," said Wallace. "Ye cannae fool the fans nooadays. They know that Europe will find oot if ye're a good team or no'." Precisely two weeks later, Rangers hosted the second Old Firm match of the season – they had drawn 2-2 on their visit to Celtic Park – in front of a paltry 43,500.

Such alarming absenteeism is unlikely tomorrow since the present-day fixture is all-ticket and these have been sold for a stadium that holds only 50,000. But the insistent drag factor created by regular exposure to sub-standard players seems certain to exact a substantial toll on forthcoming 'attractions', especially the so-called big events, at home and abroad.

In terms of the feeling that he is being taken for a simpleton, the average supporter will not have changed much in the past 33 years. Evidence for this claim is presented widely in the modern era, especially in forums, websites and phone-ins.

There was, for example, a predictably resentful riposte to the claim by the SFA chief executive, Gordon Smith, that there is too much negativity in Scotland. "I spent part of my playing career abroad and I really noticed that when I came back," said Smith. "Culturally, we're a very negative people."

Nobody, however, needs to take the needle at Smith's comments to know that no amount of positivity will alter the visual evidence this season of 12 SPL clubs, from top to bottom, polluted by moderate players.

Supporters are generally offended by the propagandising of managers, players and other 'professionals' who seemingly cannot help themselves in the matter of talking up the merits of the game. In at least this one respect – whatever anyone may think of his capabilities – Tony Mowbray has been a gratifying exception.

Within minutes of the St Mirren manager, Gus MacPherson, telling the country, via his radio interview, that Celtic are a high-quality side and that his own players had played very well in the second half of what had been 'a very good match', Mowbray became the fans' champion by asserting that his team and the game itself had been as dire as most of those in attendance had thought.

It is entirely understandable that those who earn a living from a certain product should defend its name. They shouldn't, however, expect the rest of us to fall for the spiel.

Slow start may ultimately benefit Rangers in Europe

THE most bizarre aspect of Rangers' Champions League campaign so far, of course, is that their followers would have been more worried about their prospects of progressing to the last 16 had they followed their opening draw away to VfB Stuttgart with a victory, rather than a comprehensive defeat, against Sevilla.

There are too many bad memories of the Ibrox club starting strongly and finishing weakly to take the chance of treading a painfully familiar path. Despite occupying bottom place in Group G, Walter Smith's side appear to have considerably brighter prospects of progress than Celtic, similarly placed in Group C of the Europa League.

What Rangers require is a 100 per cent record from Sevilla – not an unfeasible proposition – and then to win both their remaining home matches against Stuttgart and Unirea. The seven-point total would ensure the worst they could do would be to tie with the Romanians and hope that they would win the head-to-head.

Certainly, if Stuttgart are generally to be considered the Scottish champions' most formidable rivals for second place behind the Spaniards, Smith's side should be accorded odds-on favouritism. Anyone who saw the Germans worried out of their stride by the Ibrox team on their own ground would have their misgivings about their spirit confirmed by what occurred in the second match, against Unirea in Bucharest.

Once again, a lead proved not to be enough, the Germans pulled back to the same 1-1 scoreline achieved against Rangers. Don't imagine the Stuttgart dressing-room features too many Iron Crosses.







Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 October 2009 10:02 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Glenn Gibbons
 
1

Hibbysam,

03/10/2009 03:30:01
.
2

Game on,

03/10/2009 03:36:31
Testing
3

Hibbysam,

03/10/2009 03:43:56
No decent player will ever come to Scotland ever again.

A big shame, but true.
4

Hibbysam,

03/10/2009 03:44:10
EVER
5

What was the crowd,

03/10/2009 06:30:30
*Please enter your comment*
6

JayJay,

Right here 03/10/2009 08:30:13
I do wish managers would be really honest, as opposed to this current round of introspection that will ultimately lead us nowhere.
It seems pretty obvious to me that most, if not all of these foreign players are fitter, faster and have a far greater aptitude on the ball. Is that because they are better players, or is it because they work under far superior training regimes?
I think you can almost accept the technical superiority of a Dutch, Spanish or Italian side, but increasingly we are hosting sides from countries well down the FIFA rankings and, whilst we might scramble the odd win, these sides have a technical superiority that, when combined with efficiency in front of gaol, will see them leaving Scotland behind.
It might be an urban myth over the Monster Munch and Rangers first team squad, but I think that Paul le Guen, for all his deficiencies, called it right when he slated our players professionalism.
Never mind though. So long as one OF side triumphs tomorrow, their fans can just ignore the sub-standard fare that is being served up by players earning vast sums annually - and bizarrely, in the case of some, demanding an even larger pay poke!
7

parkgrove bobby,

Edinburgh 03/10/2009 08:41:57
Is this actually a story? Scotsman RIP
8

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 03/10/2009 08:43:20
#4

Your comments are spot on !!

Too many coaches at youth level put youngsters through football training sessions where, for the vast majority of the time, they don't even have a ball at their feet !!

If you don't learn to control the ball properly you end up a "hoofer".

Someone also mentioned the other day that the transition in youth football from 7 a side to 11 a side is when the "hoofer" mentality creeps into the game as it's easier to hoof the ball up the park than run with the ball at your feet.

I know that there are changes taking place in youth football at the present time but fear it will be many years yet before we see any Scottish player with the ball control of any top Spanish, Italian or Dutch player.......if at all !!
9

Invictager,

03/10/2009 09:18:10
The only thing the empty seats prove is that people can't afford another £40 a week simply to watch a football match that could be seen on TV.
10

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 10:03:52
#7

Morning Invictager, your 100% spot on. Football is too expensive for the ordinary punter. Especially if the a fan has kids and wants to take them also.

The quality of Scottish football has dropped a bit but not hugely.

Consider this, Souness/Smith and all their millions never reached as far as this stage in six seasons. ie. They never got past the qualifiers with the likes of Laudrup and Gazza. Were that Rangers side better than the current side probably yes but not hugely better.

Celtic after 1974 only got past Christmas in Europe once until the MON era. That's 27 years - were they a brilliant team in all that time? Far better than the current crop? Probably not.

Rangers after 1972 were only still in Europe after Christmas a total of twice in the following 25 years.

The great Rangers teams for the early 60s with Baxter in his pomp were also hammered in Europe when they played the big guns. Eintracht beat them 12-4 on agg in the semi final one season and Real beat them 7-1 on agg another season.

Point is, we are a tiny nation, we magnify our football because the fans are as passionate as any country's fans, but the truth of the matter is - Scottish football is a minnow in European football - but our expectations are sky high for some reason.

In the old days the game was more entertaining (worldwide) but not necessarily better.

The media are knocking the game and the dwindling live audience have some effect. Maybe it's time to go back to fewer live matches and a better standard in the media.

11

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 10:21:35
Completely disagree with the point made re; Jock Wallace and the 1976 Euro campaign resulting in low attendances.

They seem to forget, that in the mid seventies Scotland was impoverished with national strikes going on all over the gaff and unemployment rising.

Also in the idea that getting beaten in Europe = poor crowds. Celtic's Lisbon Lions were knocked out in the first round in 1968 v relative minnows Dynamo Kiev (ie. minnows in as much that they had never won anything in Europe or even got close). But they beat Celtic, the great Celtic team, but it never affected Celtic's home crowds. The fans still believed in the team.

Same thing when Aberdeen were walloped by Liverpool in the 80s, the Dons fans still turned out in record numbers to watch their team.

Same thing in the 80s when Celtic were consistently knocked out early in Europe - the fans still turned out to watch the team.

Gordon Smith is right, as a culture we are far too negative about ourselves not just in sport but in all walks of life. Maybe it's the weather, or the diet, or it's in the genes.
12

Invictager,

Kent 03/10/2009 10:23:59
Despite what I said at #7 our football is still relatively cheap compared to the EPL. I don't know how ordinary people down here can attend at all.
I work beside a bloke who told me last year that it costs him £100 in ticket costs alone every time he takes his mrs to watch Chelsea.

I can get a cheap return and tickets to Ibrox for little more than cost of going to London(70ish miles)to see an EPL game.

Unfortunately we will never go back to fewer live matches due to the obscene money paid out by SKY. It's ridiculous that a team like Portsmouth who are shaping up to be the worst ever in the EPL are still guaranteed about £30,000,000 this season.
13

Invictager,

Kent 03/10/2009 10:29:30
#9
Spot on.Crowds were not just dependant on Europe.

If you look back at the old records they show that attendances in those days could fluctuate wildly from game to game.

The modern, all season ticket,approach seems to have resulted in remarkably consistent attendances at league matches.
14

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 10:39:57
11 Invicta

When Fergus McCann completed Celtic Park and the season tickets were sold he stated after the first season;

"More people have watched Celtic live this season than at any other time in their history"

You are 100% correct, Celtic could get 80,000 for a European match v Ajax then agt 18,000 v Partick Thistle.

And the massive crowds only happened about five or six times a season, maybe ten times if there was a great European run.

I remember going to Celtic Park in 1970 when Celtic played Kokola of Iceland in the European Cup and the crowd was lower than 35,000.

What happened in midweek is not a new phenomenon. In fact the crowds were healthy when you consider we have not had a team in the last 8 of the CL for 18 years and not had a team in the final of the CL for 40 years.

I mean if you took a look at previous winners such as Porto's crowds or Ajax's crowds or even in Spain Valencia's European crowds or Italy look at Juve's attendances in Europe in recent years - I bet they are not that far off the 40,000 mark.
15

Bosco Bhoy68,

Donegal 03/10/2009 10:42:42
Crowds are down due to a combination of reasons but primarily this is due to the economic landscape many working class punters face,other more attractive things to do on match day and this one is a reality--the product on display is poor or at least doesnt match up to our expectations of what it should be.

Nowadays a gut just cant write off £70-£100 to take him and a few family members to a match. Money is too scarec and when you do take them to Ibrox or CP the 90 minutes on offer is a very different proposition to the La liga match the kids watched the night before on Sky.

Hard earned cash being parted with to watch the likes Caldwell and McCulloch-c'mon!
16

Bosco Bhoy68,

03/10/2009 10:43:13
* guy
17

Invictager,

Kent 03/10/2009 10:47:41
Tim
I watched the CSKA Moscow C/L game the other day and the stadium looked far more empty than either of the OF games and I'm pretty sure Moscow has a far bigger population than Glasgow.

Also, as you say, when you see some of the attendances at games involving even the Italian giants they can be very disappointing.

I believe we had just over 40,000 on Tuesday and Celtic a few thousand more on Wednesday. Hardly a disaster just yet.

Anyway,got to go. I promised I'd paint the kitchen this weekend and I can hardly do it tomorrow can I.
18

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 10:50:33
* Correction

The official attendance whn Celtic played Kokola in 1970 was 41,000.

However in the next round we played Waterford of ROI and our home attendance was just 19,000.

In the 1967 season en route to the European Cup Final we played Nantes of France and the attendance was under 40,000.

My point is - this is not a new phenomenon.

19

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 11:01:33
15 Invicta

You'll wish you were painting the kitchen tomorrow once the Celts get into their stride.

13 Bosco

True the product isn't great but you could throw the same argument at any era - ie. Why pay money in the 1970s to see Pat McCluskey, Frank Munro, Willie Garner playing against Jim Denny, Tom Forsyth or Andy Penman.

Or in the 80s, why pay good money to see Celtic with the likes of Anton Rogan, Willie McStay or Jim Melrose playing Colin McAdam, Billy Urquart or Gregor Stevens.

You picked out two of the lesser players to make the point. But people don't pay to see the lesser players they pay to see the likes of Aiden, Shaun, Paddy McCourt and Scott McDonald. Or in the Rangers camp - Novo, Naismith and Mendes.

Tomorrow will still be a packed house something that wasn't happening much in OF games in the seventies or early 80s.
20

rthinnes,

03/10/2009 11:02:13
If we were seeing decent footie then fans would be more likely pay in these tough economic times.

Have to disagree with Invictager. Take away the london clubs and you can get EPL tickets for £25-£30 quid. When you compare our prices to those on the continent there is no compariaon. For example you can get into see most bundesliga teams for around 10 quid.
21

Bosco Bhoy68,

03/10/2009 11:09:46
17 INLA
More working class people own their home and are paying HP on cars amongst other things than in the 70/80s and as a result are making more calls as to if a 'match' justifies an outlay.

And then there are all the other many other pastimes that people can now spend their hard earned dosh on with the family.
22

hammy1874,

edinburgh 03/10/2009 11:16:59
The problem with scottish football lies at the front door of the two clubs who want to run every aspect of it.
Ask yourself, why do we still have a 12 team league?
Why do we have 2 clubs dictating who gets the lions share of TV money?
Why do we have so many rubbish foreigners in our game... where did it begin?
Why do we have sectarian singing at every game involving either one of them?
Why is it every time a genuine talent emerges from another Scottish team, they are seduced into joining either one of them.... usually for a ridiculously low price?
Why do they want to leave this country and go and ply their trade in another? (especially when you see how easily they were pumped by average European sides)
The Old Firm are reaping what they have been sowing for years..... bullying the other Scottish clubs to get what they want, equating success with buying the domestic leagues, and assuming they will automatically be granted the same refereeing favours in Europe.... all at the expense of allowing a competitive league to flourish, young players to be developed, home grown talent encouraged, non sectarian environments to flourish, competition to be welcomed instead of feared, money to be distributed rather than hoarded..... start looking inwards at why we are miles behind the world in football....... and it all falls at the feet of the 2 most polluted institutions in world sport.
23

What was the crowd,

03/10/2009 11:30:26
Testing
24

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 11:33:38
19

In answer to your questions;

1. The majority of the 12 clubs voted for a 12 team league. All 12 clubs have equal voting rights.

2. All 12 clubs get equal shares of the TV money.

3. Rubbish foreigners were actually brought in by the non OF clubs. (the good ones went to the OF becuase they could afford them) I think you'll find Dundee Utd and Aberdeen were amongst the first to consistently bring in foreigners from Scandinavia.

4. There is NO sectarian singing at Celtic Park.

5. Poaching other clubs talent for ridiclous low fees -yeah like the £4m Celtic paid for average Scott Brown.

6. Why do Celtic and Rangers want to ply their trade in a better league - obvious the OF are sick of bailing out all the smaller clubs every season.

I hope Celtic and Rangers do leave Scottish football and leave the rest without a prayer. You'll all go part time or amalgamate with the junior leagues. In fcat the league will be on a par with the Irish league.
25

Irish National Lenny Army,

03/10/2009 11:34:14
laters off out with the missus for lunch
26

I-Mac,

03/10/2009 11:40:37
"Rangers after 1972 were only still in Europe after Christmas a total of twice in the following 25 years" (#8)

A small point but it was three times.

As for hammy's attempt to blame everything on the big bad Old Firm (#19), it's absurd. Scottish football will get nowhere if the smaller clubs don't face up to their responsibilities.
27

oderint dum metuant,

03/10/2009 13:33:08
could be a vacnacy in the EPL coming up when portsmouth enter administration....i wonder if rangers or rasellick have the nerve to lobby for it?
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Bring meth on,

03/10/2009 13:42:56
Testing
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Daillyman,

03/10/2009 14:09:35
Problems with the comments section again, 49 posts listed only 23 comments for reading. Come on Scotsman get on the ball.
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Hibbysam,

03/10/2009 14:45:24
#24

Was the same yesterday... was if they just decided to close the comments but not admit they had.
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Irish National Lenny Army,

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24/25

Dunno what the problem is with the Scotsman. It seems some posters are posting but their post is not showing.

I've sent an email to their technology dept. No reply as yet but I am sure it's some technical hitch with the software.
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