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Scottish Cup Final: Queens rise slowly but majestically



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Published Date: 26 May 2008
IF SOMEONE had revealed at half-time that the Scottish Cup final was to produce five goals, then instinct would surely have advised anyone to fear for the side then already trailing 2-0. The only football club mentioned in the Bible were giving the Good Book a bad name.
It wasn't Rangers who looked dead on their feet, but Queen of the South. Theirs was the exhaustion which comes from not having played enough. They appeared like the jogger at the start of a fitness programme – the mind was willing, the body wasn't quite in the groove yet. All the training sessions, all the practice matches in the world cannot sufficiently prepare footballers for competitive outings, particularly when they take the form of a cup final. Nervous as well as physical exertion impacted on Queens. The first half passed them by. When Jim Thomson and Ryan McCann clattered into each other in the run-up to Rangers' second goal, the Aero leather clothing company might have considered withdrawing their club sponsorship. Thomson modelled one of their leather jackets in the match programme, but landing on the Hampden turf having just bumped into a team-mate was not a good look.

Four weeks of inactivity had taken its toll. Queens signed off from the First Division on 26 April, with a 4-0 hammering at Dunfermline. This was before Rangers had even played the second leg of their Uefa Cup semi-final. As one wit had it: the last time Queens were seen in action chairman David Rae's thatch of silver hair was jet black. It had been quite some time.

But the fans had not forgotten them. They trundled up from Dumfries in vast numbers and blessed Hampden with their presence. 'God Save the Queens' was the wry message across one banner. Reminding them just what they and almost every other team are up against was the Union flag in the Rangers end. Lockerbie Loyal it read. While clearly not everyone in the south-west of Scotland had hitched their wagon to the Queens cause, it certainly felt like it. They filled up their allocation at Hampden as easily as most established SPL clubs. There was not a seat to be had as the teams arrived on the pitch. Finally the moment had arrived. Visitors to Palmerston Park are often directed to yellowing newspaper cuttings in the main stand which recall the side's run to the semi-final of the cup in 1950. But this was a final, and the glitz and the glamour was something different to what the likes of Jim Patterson had experienced back then.

Rae was at home listening to his transistor radio when the Dumfries side held Rangers to a 1-1 draw 58 years ago, before losing the replay 3-0. Here, the chairman was present in all his unpretentious glory. Perhaps the most enriching consequence of Queens' progress this season is this man becoming better known in Scottish football. Refreshingly, he refuses to conform.

For the pre-match meet-and-greet, he simply pulled on an old jacket and pointlessly patted down his hair. He punched the air when introduced, and the Queens fans roared their approval. What must Jean-Claude Darcheville have thought? In his last cup final, in Manchester less than a fortnight ago, he was introduced to Michel Platini. Here he was shaking hands with a farmer in an anorak. Rae represented a distinct contrast to the preening Rangers chief executive, Martin Bain, someone whose skin colour always seems a rather artificial hue.

Behind Bain glowed a man whose ruddiness is the natural result of a life exposed to the Solway air. The Ibrox chief executive could keep his candy-stripe tie, brown brogues and Mediterranean – or is it Consul Suncenter, Govan Road? – tan.

Like the CIS Cup final, the match build-up appeared to be dominated by a chairman. Mercifully, Rae's impact had been rendered through force of personality and not serious illness, as was the case with Dundee United's Eddie Thompson in March. The bond between Rae and Gordon Chisholm seems just as tight as the one which exists between Thompson and his manager, Craig Levein.

The Queens chairman even permitted his manager to take the players away from the town to train this season. In the run-up to cup final day, this was regrettable. Indeed, it seemed as though some Queens players had been left reeling by the realisation of just how significant an occasion it was for the Dumfries community. This had possibly been obscured by a training programme which remained based in Glasgow, leaving the players divorced from the gathering excitement in the town itself. By the time the enormity of it all had sunk in, Queens were 2-0 down.

The interval was a god-send. Inside the 'home' dressing room at Hampden, Chisholm was required to make the half-time talk of his life. Afterwards, striker Stephen Dobbie revealed something of what had been said. "The gaffer said we were here on merit," he said. "Have no regrets when you walk off that park." Had there been raised voices? "We got a bit of a telling off," said Sean O'Connor. "We didn't perform in the first half."

"We have a great belief in the dressing room," added Robert Harris. "We fight for each other. A lot of teams who are 2-0 down to Rangers at half-time could have been looking at four or five. But the character is magnificent. I am proud to be a part of that. Four weeks off is a long time. It took us a while to get going. But in the second half, we really gave it a go."

In the end, rather than the one-sided affair some – with initial good reason – had feared, we were presented with one of the most thrilling finals in recent years. Few will forget the sight of an airborne Thomson straining every sinew in his neck to head home the equaliser, and at the Queens end too. Given they had never before been at a cup final, it was possibly the greatest moment in the club's 89-year history, though even without it, the fans had ensured that this was a day like no other in Queens' history.

The full article contains 1059 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 May 2008 9:03 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Queen of the South FC
 
1

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 00:42:27
Rangers are still moaning because they only got the one league extension.
They don't seem to realise that there are other considerations to take account of, like , sticking to the rules.
Still, we all knew that when Sir Minty, fighting back tears, told us that we'd hear nothing more about it from Rangers, it was a clear signal that we'd never hear the end of it...and sadly this has been proven correct.

They will greet all summer about this...but they know the truth of it : they got lucky reaching the UEFA Cup Final, and , with one win away from home against the top 6, they were never good enough to take the title off the scottish champions.

In fact , it is a curious stat that for over three months, Rangers never played a top 6 club away from home...it allowed them to build up a head of steam more so than any other club by a considerable margin.

Rangers simply have to accept that they were not good enough , and that but for mcurry their title challenge would have hit the rocks before the last day.

Rangers are a collective of bargain basements/journetmen who got lucky in UEFA but must now confront the truth about their true abilities.

The champions, beating 7 top 6 clubs in the title run-in, march on to glory.
2

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 00:42:31
Congratulations on winning the Bells challenge cup, Rangers-looks like you've found your level.
Still, I can see trophys almost certainly going to Ibrox next season-the Rangers players' performances at the end as they pretended to be pleased at winning the cup surely merits an Oscar!
3

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 00:53:59
The bitter bhoys are on early I see! :0)

A great day for Queens but Rangers were worthy winners of an entertaining final. A fine season for the Gers with a European final and two cups. Celtic fans really should enjoy their own team's success and remember Tommy Burns and Phil O'Donnell (whose tribute match it was yesterday) rather than sniping at Rangers.
4

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 01:02:12
Celtic's best ever season in my lifetime without a doubt.
5

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 01:05:55
Had to laugh at Jimmy Calderwood's comments that Rangers were the true winners of the SPL because of Zander Diamonds disallowed 'goal'. Obviously maths isn't his strong point-if that goal had stood, Celtic would have dropped two points. We won the league by three!
6

Raskolnikov,

26/05/2008 01:40:35
Got a phone call from my Gers supporting brother-in-law Sunday morning. Apparently at Hampden on Saturday there was a bit of an incident between Gers fans. As they sang "The Famine's Over" a crowd of Gers fans from Northern Ireland demanded that they stop signing it. Turned a bit nasty as the two factions faced up to each other and only the intervention of stewards and police stopped a mini-riot.

Seems not all Gers fans are bigoted morons.
7

,

26/05/2008 01:52:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Raskolnikov,

26/05/2008 01:56:20
Richardinho - I must confess to being a little confused as to why the NI supporters would be so against the song, until my brother-in-law explained about the number of Irish Protestants who were victims. I had honestly never realised that.
9

Raskolnikov,

26/05/2008 01:57:25
I suppose it's like all recists - they haven't the brain capacity to work out the irony for themselves.
10

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 02:07:35
All in all a great season for Celtic. now that the celebrations have died down-(well a bit!), inevitably thoughts will turn to next season. It looks like Rangers may have more money to spend than Celtic, but at the same time, they will probably have to almost completely rebuild their team;most of them being either too old or clearly not good enough. Of the 11 Celtic players who started against Dundee utd, with the exception perhaps of Lee Naylor, all are in the prime of their playing careers and will be back next season.Boruc may go, but we should be able to replace him like for like with the money we'll get for him and mark Wilson is a more than able replacement for naylor.

Here's to four in a row!
11

Raskolnikov,

26/05/2008 04:44:29
That's 3 Gers managers Wee Gordon has seen off. Who'll be number 4 I wonder - Jimmy Calderwood?
12

CondoleezzaCousCous,

26/05/2008 07:43:56
Usual sniping and greetin'from the tics on this Rangers thread.
Seems like bro wally believes that, if he pedles the same McCurry line often enough, then even rational neutrals will start to believe it. Sad thing is that he's probably right.
Let's remind ourselves of the 2 decisions which regularly go "unnoticed" by the blinkered vermin like bw.
Good goal by Aberdeen chalked off. Offside goal vs Rangers allowed to stand. That's 4 pts straight away and, as little richard reminded us at #5, celtic won the league by 3 points....there goes your league championship bhoys. If you want to send it to its rightful home, I'll pay the postage.
13

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 09:11:46
Funny as well how Celtic fans get phone calls about "incidents" at Rangers games that no-one else has ever heard of!
14

PROBABLY THE MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAM IN THE WORLD,

.....EVER 26/05/2008 09:15:37
celtics best ever season?
#2 I know celtic fans aren't known for their intelligence but you take the biscuit.

celtic have gone backwards.

Scraping the league on the last day of the season.
Scraping into the last 16 on the back of a fluke result ( Shaktar 0 Benfica 3)
Nowhere near the League cup final
Nowhere near the Scottish cup final.

Half the squad on mad wages that you want rid of...

I better stop, I'm acting like a celtic fan, more concerned with the opposition.

Fact is, Rangers had a successful season and I'm delighted with the outcome.

And that's all that matters.

The majority of bears were happy to take the league to the wire.
To win the League cup.
To win the Scottish cup.
To play in the UEFA cup final.

And that's all that matters.
The future is indeed bright.
15

,

26/05/2008 09:25:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 09:30:35
#15,

The song (which I don't like) is not aimed at the Irish or the Catholic but to mock Celtic fans' dewy-eyed attachment to the history of another country.

Good to see Rangers getting to the UEFA Cup got to you. Your team have won the league but you're still whingeing on bitterly.
17

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 09:41:30
16

Who are you kiddin pal ?

Yes I see your point...the latent anti-catholic message in fact satirises the futility of racial intollerance , and its extensive lyrical repertoise juxtaposes itself with the more restricted 'ah'm rainjurs 'till ah die'.
18

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 09:45:31
Nope. It's just a piss-take.
19

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 09:48:09
Tell it to the judge (UEFA).
20

Media 1,

South Africa 26/05/2008 09:49:59
Rangers were not good enough to win the league with all the games they needed to play, and Celtic were not good enough to win it by more than 3 points against a club dead on their feet!

But the banter must continue! It is good for the soul.

Rangers and Celtic in the last 60 years
Rangers - 26 titles
Celtic - 22 Titles

Rangers and Celtic in the last 50 years
Rangers - 21 titles
Celtic - 20 titles

Rangers and Celtic in the last 40 years
Celtic - 21 titles
Rangers - 17 titles

Rangers and Celtic in the last 20 years
Rangers 13 titles
Celtic 7 titles

Rangers and Celtic in the last 10 years
Celtic 6 titles
Rangers 4 titles

At the end of the day there is so many ways to look at it, which is why the only score that matters is 51-42

21

chapelxnomore,

26/05/2008 09:51:10
And here'e me thinking this was a Cup Final thread.... I'll look somewhere else.
22

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 09:52:01
#19,

Dream on.
23

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 09:55:42
20

But many of those titles were won in the days when mcurry would have looked fair...in fact, mcurry would have been stripped of his license for being unpatriotic.

Once that is factored in, lord knows how many of those titles can be dismissed. Conservatively, I would say a couple of dozen.
24

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 09:59:11
Brother Wally

If you believe that Cathlolic people are downtrodden then that is your belief. If it makes you feel better to play the hard done by card everyday then that is also good. At the end of the day you only keep yourself back, nobody else owes you anything and nobody else cares.
You make your own choices in life and where you see restrictions, so will there be restrictions.
Now I know you will tell me you are successful, but in truth, you wouldnt be playing the downtrodden card if you were.
Im catholic! REMEMBER? And guess what, I made it because I knew there was no conspiracy against me!
25

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 10:09:28
24

Mediocre 1

My remarks, as it is plain to see, are an indictment against attitudes within scottish football, which in years gone by found greater voice on the park than is possible in the modern era.

I have made no comment at all as regards my reaction to that, and anything you derive from my words in that respect is entirely subjective.

I can see that you are most likely not A catholic , because catholic people most often, almost without exception, describe themselves as A catholic.

It is their detractors who tend to describe an individual as ' catholic' - he is catholic, not he is A catholic.

So you see, when you say 'Im (sic) catholic', you raise a bit of a doubt about the truth of the statement, and when that remark is put into the context of your other remarks, I think we can safely say that you're not fooling anyone.
26

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 10:31:30
#14

"Celtic have gone backwards"

More points and goals than last season...

If that's going backwards.....can't wait for next season!
27

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 10:31:57
Brother Wally

You know from my visits to this board that I am an athiest. So you are correct, I am not catholic! Perhaps I should I have said, I was born a catholic! Then again, even that isnt true, just because my mum was catholic does not mean I was catholic as I wasnt old enough to make up my own mind! But you get the picture! Just because my gran, (who incidentally was my best friend in the world) had a picture of the pope on her Maryhill Road tenement, did not mean I was inclined to follow suit...
I had no religious beliefs, I was and am, an athiest! I find so much tranquility and peace in that way of life and it allows me to respect the wishes of others that I meet in everyday life. I have no objection to anyone who worships and cultivates their god, it is their decision and I respect that, which is why in REAL life, I tend to steer away from conversations surrouding religion! On here it makes no difference, it is informal and cyber!
Anyway, back to the point! You appear to think that Rangers have won titles based on some form of discrimination, which begs the question as to how Celtic have won 20 odd titles in the last 60 years!
There is no discrimination, it is all in the mind of those who want there to be discrimination! Thus such people will always be bigotted and backward thinking!
As I said, it is 51-42 and there is a long way to go.
28

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 10:35:06
Media

Cathlolic?...Are you sure you're one?
29

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 10:36:53
#27

Why did you leave Scotland?
30

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 10:43:56
Paulmac

No I am not catholic! My family are, or at least, many of them are...

Why did I leave.
Born in Glasgow, went to school in Glasgow for first 2 years, moved to Edinburgh, went to school there for 5 years, moved to SA with folks (dad had a contract) moved to Australia 5 years later also on contract, back to Scotland - Edinburgh for 2 years, then back to SA for good! Lived back in Edinburgh from 1999 till 2005 and still have a flat in Stockbridge and one up in Aberdeen that I own with my sister!
Hope that helps
31

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 10:45:32
Mmm...back to the match.

Shouldn't McCulloch have been red-carded for his over-the-ball challenge in the opening stages of the game?

Why was he not dismissed, do you think..?
32

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 10:57:11
#31,

Daft challeenge but not exactly a stonewall red card. Refs are reluctant to send players off in such games anyway, especially early. I watched the Leeds-Doncaster play-off final yesterday and there were a couple of shocking challenges early on which didn't even get yellow cards.
33

The Equaliser,

26/05/2008 11:15:46
I see the Celtic minded are still intent on dragging this down to their gutter level. I for one don't want to see or hear anymore of their ramblings.

The fact is they won the title. Fair and square - no - hollow victory - yes, but maybe thats why they are still on here sniping away trying in vain to prove a point.

Goodbye, I'm away for the summer.
34

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 11:22:17
Media

It would be fair to say then....your experience of what other posters mention is very limited...as your life has been garnished away from Scotland.
35

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 11:23:01
#33

Have a nice holiday!
36

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 11:26:15
Had to laugh when I saw the name of one of the Manchester 42....

The report said he was arrested for battering a russian supporter....

A Mr. Dallas no less!
37

,

26/05/2008 11:34:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Royalty,

Zandvoort 26/05/2008 11:56:07
Great view from Section Q at Hampden on Saturday.

Q of S fans were excellent, this was there Manchester.

A fine season but an expensive one.

Well done Walter, Ally & Kenny.

39

LyonHearts,

le teil 26/05/2008 12:02:10
For some reason we don't seem to be able to comment on the Rangers story where Walter Smith said that the fixture backlog should not be allowed to happen again!

So the SFA is supposed to help out the Rangers bullies who've disgraced Scottish football?

Who thinks that Rangers deserved to win on Saturday? No-one! Who thinks QofS were robbed? a lot of people!

Rangers created a rod for their own backs and the OF are asking the rest of Scottish football to help them out! They can get lost - why should they get special treatment because they are bigger than all the other clubs?

Good luck to the Doonhammers in the UEFA next season - I personally don't care about Smith of Rangers!
40

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 12:07:18
#39

Naw just Rangers!
41

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 12:08:51
#38

"this was their Manchester"

Without the rammy
42

Media 1,

south africa 26/05/2008 12:20:34
Lyon Hearts

I dont think the Old Firm want special treatment, they know they are bigger and better than the rest so that alone suits them.
I think they are suggesting that they dont want the same thing to happen to Aberdeen, Dundee United or Hearts should any of them get to three cup finals and still be in with a chance to win the league! That is all they are saying, nothing more!
The conjestion happens because people in the SFA/SPL are easily manipulated into caving in to unreasonable requests.

Next season there should be no cancellations and no postponements for upcomming matches. You enter to play, so you play! Had Celtic been in the Scottish cup final against QOTS would they have played the game on Saturday? I would they would have played even though Tommy Burns, (rest his soul)recently died. Yet at a critical time of the season when Rangers were fitter they cancelled a game after the death of Phil O'donnell.

The SFA/SPL need to be strong and say NO MORE!
If Rangers or Celtic are playing big European matches on the Tuesday or Wednesday, too bad, you still play your domestic game without postponement! If someone dies the game goes on! The only cancellation will be for the team affected and only if the person is currently working for that club. Had one of the Celtic tea ladies who had been working at Celtic Park for 30 years died that weekend, would Celtic have asked for a cancellation? I say not, so its all a nonsense! Play the game and then grieve. End of story.
43

PROBABLY THE MOST SUCCESSFUL TEAM IN THE WORLD,

26/05/2008 12:20:53
#39 You're almost as bitter as the celtic fans!

QOS deserved what they got on Saturday, nothing.
Rangers were the better team.

They had more attempts on goal....
They had more attempts off goal....
They had more corners...
They SCORED MORE GOALS!

Therefore Rangers deserved to win.
Can you not understand that?
No, because like the majority of the beggars, you are blinded to reality because of your jealousy, bitterness and hatred of Rangers FC.

This holds you back.
44

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 12:38:59
43

Probably the most bogus claim in the world.

C H A M P I O N E E S !!!

TROIS, UN APRES L'AUTRE !!!!
45

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 12:42:31
Brother Walfrid

Cmon now! complete your sentence!

CHAMPIONEES for the 42 time!
46

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 12:49:15
45

Tu ne me comprends pas.
47

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 12:50:32
TROIS, UN APRES L'AUTRE !!!
48

Media 1,

south africa 26/05/2008 12:58:20
Brother

Nie boet, Celtic was gelukkig om die kampioenskap te wen. Ek weet dit and jy weet dit, almal weet dit!
Miskien een dag sal hulle Rangers jag, maar ek dink nie so nie...
49

Royalty,

Zanvoort 26/05/2008 13:01:49
Rangers ganará el triple de la próxima temporada.

Fur sure.
50

Media 1,

south africa 26/05/2008 13:05:41
By the way, who got promotion from the 1st div?
51

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 13:08:33
#32 "not exactly a stonewall red card". Why not?

Was the offence not the same as that which saw Novo dismissed at Aberdeen?

If your contention that "Refs are reluctant to send players off in such games anyway, especially early" is true, is this not the same as saying that some players are being discriminated against?

Try a leg-breaker early on in a cup final and the ref won't send you off. Do it in other circumstances and you probably will get sent off. Is this a fair and resonable application of the rules of the game?

Or is what Steve Tosh suggested (re another incident) nearer the truth? That to have sent McCulloch packing "would have been a decision against Rangers in a cup final...and that's just not going to happen."





But to paraphrase Tosh, perhaps this "would have been a decision against Rangers in a cup final...and that's just not going to happen."
52

paulmac,

surrey 26/05/2008 13:14:21
#43

Just stand up for the Champions!

You know you want to....

WATP
B&Q
A&E
STD
KFC
53

BEMUSED EXILE,

26/05/2008 13:14:23
Great effort from QoS, but another cup triumph is the very least that Rangers deserve after their Herculean efforts against the odds this season.

To see the big picture, now that the season is over, we have to go back exactly 12 months, to the end of last season. Rangers had just endured a second successive trophyless season, had watched Celtic canter to their second SPL title in a row, and had an income from a modest UEFA run of around £500,000. The perceived wisdom on these threads and elsewhere was that WS's "transfer-chest" would be no more than 3 or 4 million, an opinion reinforced by RFC's apparent inability to compete for the signing of Scott Brown.

What happened next was truly remarkable. Player after player rolled into Ibrox as SDM pushed the boat out to raise £10 million for Walter's rebuilding. And boy, did it yield results. Within a few weeks, Rangers had qualified for the riches of the CL group stages, a journey which would end with the club's first appearance in a European final for 36 years, and bring in around £20 million of additional income.

Domestically, Rangers finally mounted a very serious challenge to Celtic in the SPL, which narrowly failed due to a ludicrous fixture congestion that saw the players dying on their feet and throwing away several careless points. Both domestic cups were won, however, and the players can take great pride in both their efforts and their achievements.

Now, Walter is assured of the funds to further improve the team, and even these purchases will be self-financing if Rangers can once again reach the CL group stages. We can all look forward to an even stronger Rangers team next season, and more glory is on the cards.

C'mon the 'Gers.
54

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 13:17:27
It is funny listening to some fans of the smaller clubs. Not all mind you, but most of them!
They have the small dog syndrome, the hard done by chip on their shoulder.
It cannot be that a team who have won 51 titles, 32 Scottish Cups and almost 30 Leagues cups, not to mention represented Scotland in 4 European finals could have won a cup final against MAJESTIC QOTS who have won what again? hahahahahahaha!
It is like the poor black African country suggesting that Europe is only wealthy because of colonialism, it could never be because they worked hard for it.

Shame really how some people need to invent reasons to cushion the blow of their own miserable failure! Its always someone elses fault, never theirs!
55

Media 1,

south africa 26/05/2008 13:27:57
Next season my predictions will be much better than this season.
Hibs for relegation, the hobo's need to go, they are a nothing club!
56

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 13:28:06
54

I think you misunderstand the complaint of many African countries.

It IS as a result of colonialism that THEY ARE POOR.

The converse, that europe is comparatively wealthy because of their subjection, is not necessarily true.

It is true that colonialism in Africa was all about subjugation...the white man's exploitation of another country's wealth and populace.
57

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 13:44:33
"Was the offence not the same as that which saw Novo dismissed at Aberdeen?" (#51)

No.

"If your contention that "Refs are reluctant to send players off in such games anyway, especially early" is true, is this not the same as saying that some players are being discriminated against?" (#51)

No.

"Try a leg-breaker early on in a cup final and the ref won't send you off. Do it in other circumstances and you probably will get sent off. Is this a fair and resonable application of the rules of the game?" (#51)

Nice hypothetical there. I was dealing in what actually happens.

"Or is what Steve Tosh suggested (re another incident) nearer the truth? That to have sent McCulloch packing "would have been a decision against Rangers in a cup final...and that's just not going to happen."" (#51)

No.

"But to paraphrase Tosh, perhaps this "would have been a decision against Rangers in a cup final...and that's just not going to happen."" (#51)

Poor Tosh. He was a bit upset. Perhaps he missed the various dodgy offsides against Rangers.
58

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 13:49:29
Brother Walfrid

Oh I didnt know there was massive infrastructure and wealth prior to the arrival of those despicable white folk. Shame on them for stealing all that wealth that by your account, already existed.
By the way! Was South America not colonised? I cant remember the last time we had a concert to raise money for their massive starvation problems. Wasnt Australia colonised? Man I cant remember foreign aid being sent to Australia either.
What about Hong Kong? Man I cannot remember them being offered hand outs..
Come and live this continent, and then speak to me again after 2 years!
59

Media 1,

cape town 26/05/2008 14:05:32
BROTHER

But lets not ruin a football thread speaking about it!

There is a thread on Mugabe for that!

Rangers won the cup, end of story! QOTS need to try and get into that position more often, not once in a lifetime.
60

The Equaliser,

26/05/2008 14:07:03
51 Bleeding Wart

Same could be said of JVOH after his taking out Nacho Novo recently, try asking Ian Murray his comments after the recent Celtic Hibs match. If you demand red cards what about his assault on Faye?
61

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 14:14:53
#57 "Nice hypothetical there. I was dealing in what actually happens."

It was you who posed the hypothesis.

You suggested, did you not, that a referee might take a different view of an over-the-ball challenge in a cup final (and the timing of the offence) than he might do in another type of game.

Assuming you may be correct, I merely asked if you therefore thought that this state of affairs was a reasonable and fair application of the rules?

And what was so different about the two challenges (Novo & McCulloch)..?

62

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 14:16:06
#60 What have your examples got to do with my point?
63

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 14:40:30
"It was you who posed the hypothesis. You suggested, did you not...." (#61)

No, I reported what has actually happened.

"And what was so different about the two challenges (Novo & McCulloch)..?" (#61)

Novo made a sort of stamp, McCulloch threw himself in to try to block the ball. Do you really think the challenges were identical?
64

LyonHearts,

le teil 26/05/2008 14:45:21
#42/43 So why did they field full strength teams throught the CIS cup campaign? Man Utd always contrive to get themselves knocked out in the early stages! Better to leave other clubs to fight out for this fairly meaningless trophy and save themselves an energy sapping extra time/penalties final!


65

Royalty,

Zandvoort 26/05/2008 15:22:16
#64

"Man Utd always contrive to get themselves knocked out in the early stages!"

I see Hearts are using a similar strategy these days.

66

LyonHearts,

le teil 26/05/2008 15:57:38
#65 Well Hearts are Hearts, but I support them regardless!

All I'm saying is that instead of fielding full strength sides in domestic cup competitions why didn't Rangers save themeseleves for the title challenge and the UEFA? They've ended up with two rather piric victories the two lesser competitions rather than a half decent shot at two much, much bigger prizes!

Hearts failed in 85/86 and ended up with nothing! In 98 we stepped of the gas in the league and won the cup - same thing in 2006!

And before anyone starts about " only two trophies in 40 odd years etc" I've supported Hearts all my life, they are my local team - "Craiglockhart lad that I am" - I would never change to another team!
67

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 15:58:17
#63 What you said was "Refs are reluctant to send players off in such games anyway, especially early".

You are clearly implying that "such games" are handled differently. My question therefore remains: is this a fair and reasonable application of the rules of the game?

As to the two challenges, I think they are identical in that both were over-the-ball challenges. Why was Novo's deemed more severe?

Is it because, as you've suggested, that cup finals are games where "Refs are reluctant to send players off anyway, especially early"?

The conclusion from your suggestion therefore is that McCulloch could commit an early over-the-top challenge with impunity. And did so.
68

Royalty,

Zandvoort 26/05/2008 16:03:36
#66

Theres no doubt that the treble is something all Rangers fans crave at the start of a season.

The League,Skol,CIS Cup is a means to an end.

So no Rangers manager will weaken their chances of getting all 3 domestic trophies.

Anyway, if managers send out weakened sides, the club should charge fans less, otherwise they are being short changed.
69

LyonHearts,

le teil 26/05/2008 16:18:48
Well regardless of the if's and buts Rangers blew it big time and I suspect most Rangers fans wouldn't have minded either paying a bit more for a cup tie or getting knocked out of either domestic cups if they'd won either the league or the UEFA!

Nuff said now I suppose, but I'd be disappointed with that if I was a Rangers fan and that's for sure!
70

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 16:23:09
"You are clearly implying that "such games" are handled differently" (#67)

No, I'm stating it.

"My question therefore remains: is this a fair and reasonable application of the rules of the game?" (#67)

Yes. We live in the real world, not a realm of robots.

"The conclusion from your suggestion therefore is that McCulloch could commit an early over-the-top challenge with impunity. And did so." (#67)

If your conclusion is that McCulloch deliberately made suh a challenge, then no.
71

BEMUSED EXILE,

26/05/2008 16:51:30
James, my old sparring partner...

I have no doubt that the notion of RFC fans being "gutted" about Celtic winning the SPL is an integral element of the pleasure that you derive from the situation. This "schadenfreude" would constitute nothing more than the normal rules of domestic rivalry, so I can take no issue with it.

For myself, though, I can honestly state my delight with Rangers season, and with their achievements. Sure, there was a heady couple of weeks at the beginning of this month after the penalty shoot-out in Florence where 4 trophies looked distinctly possible, but the reality is that, by then, we'd already lost twice at CP, and for me, the SPL had become an outside bet. And after watching Zenit rattle in goals almost at will against two of the Bundesliga's top sides, I had the distinct impression that we were serious underdogs in that one, too.

The fact is that, as recently as the middle of March, there still existed a realistic possibility of Rangers finishing with nothing, much as Celtic had in their nonetheless superb season in 2002/03. Going further back, to the start of the season, do you really think that any Rangers fan would have been disappointed with a season that brought 2 domestic cups, a last-day challenge for the SPL, a lucrative CL campaign, and a march all the way to the UEFA Final?

So, my congratulations to Celtic on being capable enough to finish strongly, and to take advantage of Rangers obvious fatigue, in order to edge the SPL title race.

But "gutted" with how it all ended up? Not this Rangers fan, I'm afraid.
72

Bleeding Heart...,

26/05/2008 17:14:13
#70 So, you're stating that games such as cup finals are handled differently and you think it's fair and reasonable for this to be the case.

And your justification for these double-standards is that this is how the "real world" operates?

I can't pretend to know McCulloch's mind when he made the tackle in question.

The point however remains: it was an over-the-ball challenge, a potential leg-breaker.

As such, I don't see that McCulloch merited different treatment from Novo.
73

BEMUSED EXILE,

26/05/2008 17:18:23
James

Nothing unreasonable therein. I think at my age, after watching Scottish football for about 40 years, I've come to a stage where I'm not too fooled by success, and not too upset by failure. Obviously, many others take it harder, and they were doubtlessly your target audience for post #71.

As for your patterns, I take your point, but patterns are there to be changed, and in the latter stages of the season, I felt that Rangers looked a very tired team in the second-half of away games against decent opposition, specifically at Celtic Park, Easter Road, Fir Park and finally Pittodrie. I certainly believe that if Rangers had been as fresh as the opposition in those games, then a couple of those results could easily have changed in their favour.

Notwithstanding all of that however, is was still incumbent upon Celtic to put together the kind of run that allowed them to take advantage of this, and I give them ample credit for proving able to do so.
74

Daillyman,

26/05/2008 17:25:30
73 James

I think a couple of factors entered into the unbeaten run by Celtic at the end to win the SPL.

First was WGS having to start Robson and Hartley in midfield because of injuries and suspensions to previously preferred players.

Both gave a more balanced look to the middle of the park for the tic. Robson while at United this season was arguably one of the most consistant midfield players in the country. For a couple of months after his transfer he rarely started and featured usually as a 15minute sub late in games.

WGS consistently played Brown, Donuuti, and even Sno in front of the 2 players previously mentioned.
I also think Lennon coming brought something into the dressing room that seemed to be lacking before his arrival.

Just an outsiders opinion.
75

Brother Walfrid,

26/05/2008 17:28:28
If Rangers had shown a good record away from home during the first half of the season, then it would be easier to point to a tailing off, and speculate that this was attributable to tiredeness.

The facts are that Rangers didn't perform well away from in general, and this rather curious stat, that they avoided top 6 clubs away from home for more than 12 consecutive weeks, masked their weakness.

It all came crashing down when rangers had to go on the road and face the best of the spl.
It was far more to do with chickens coming home to roost than anything else.

Not good enough, basically.
76

Daillyman,

26/05/2008 17:32:46
77 Patrick

Yes and they roosted just long enough for the club to play in 3 cup finals, win 2 and finish 3 points behind the league winners and lose the league on the final day. The gap is closing.
77

BEMUSED EXILE,

26/05/2008 17:44:46
Brother

I'm sure that there is merit in both of our arguments. I also think that a mental fatigue of sorts came into play.

After all, our away form in the UEFA Cup, winning in Lisbon and drawing in Athens and Florence, suggests that we were capable of a certain level of performance away from home that would have enabled us to win at places like Easter Road and Fir Park.

But I think that the players were able to "up" their games in ther latter part of the season for what they saw as bigger, more glamorous matches, but couldn't quite raise themselves for visits to Edinburgh and Motherwell.
78

Publilius Syrus,

C.L.I.Q.U.E. CraigLeveinIsQuiteUnique-Eh !!! 26/05/2008 20:31:58
Dundee United seem to be prepared to do the same as Mad(my erse)Vlad and are preparing to drag the SFA through the courts as a result of them being "cheated" in their last game against Rearrangers in the league.

In that game, Scottish Footballing fans watched on in shock,horror and disgust in the way The Very Reverend The Mike was determined to referee their match against Rearrangers.
Decisions being made in Rearrangers favour that defied belief and prompted Dundee United manager to declare pulicly that they had been "cheated".

Dundee United WILL get satisfaction by taking this through the courts.
The evidence in Dundee Uniteds favour and against Rangers Football Club is caught forever on film and is simply overwhelming.

Well done Dundee United.

And well done Craig Levein.
Isn`t it.
79

Wee Pal Joe,

26/05/2008 21:04:28
"I don't see that McCulloch merited different treatment from Novo" (#74)

Your wilful blindness is your own problem.

The incidents were different and the occasions were different too.
80

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 21:30:25
Getting through to the last 16 of the Champions League (again), Beating the European Champions, Winning the SPL by a clear margin after our challenge had been declared dead and buried by virtually everybody, playing the most exciting football for many years, the emergence of a group of players who will probably serve us for years to come..

Best ever season in my lifetime, without a doubt.
81

Publilius Syrus,

C.L.I.Q.U.E. CraigLeveinIsQuiteUnique-Eh !!! 26/05/2008 22:08:46
You know, this may be the biggest blunder in the running of Scottish Football in its history.

It could mark a great day,a great day for justice and fair play being incorporated into Scottish Football.

George Peat,President of the SFA has,to all intents and purposes let the cat out the bag.
Its an SFA admission that the saying"oh what a tangled web we weave when at first the SFA practise to deceive",is alive and for the time being well.

George Peat has intervened where he had no right whatsoever,in that the General Purposes Committee were looking into the case against Craig Levein to see if he had a case to answer at all.
George Peats comments that he believed Craig Leveins comments to be quote,"criminal",are said to pre-empt any decision that the INDEPENDANT GPC might arrive at.
They are being said by Dundee United lawyers to be "predudicial in the extreme" and question Peats right to be involved at this stage at all.

Great news this for ALL Scottish Footballing supporters.

ALL fans outside Rearrangers and their "football" club that is.
Isn`t it.
82

Fayneant,

NZ 26/05/2008 22:31:14
53 - Well said, BE.

On to next season. I can't wait!

83

Fayneant,

NZ 26/05/2008 22:39:19
85 - Hey Eeeday/Pub Quiz - what are you going to do now that the season is over?

Maybe you'll have to unglue that bum of yours from the seat in front of the computer and go outside and get a life - or at least a bit of sun on your pasty frame!

84

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 22:45:18
Looking forwards to next season. Our squad is looking stronger than ever. How many of Rangers side who pretended to be overjoyed at Hampden on Saturday will be playing next year?
85

Publilius Syrus,

26/05/2008 22:49:32
#87 Fannyeant

Once a Fann#,Eant,always a Fann@,right.

Sad.
Isn`t it.
86

Fayneant,

NZ 26/05/2008 22:53:39
88 - I'm sure that was a rhetorical question, but in my opinion:

Out (definite) - Hemdani, Cousin, Webster, Dailly, Faye

Out (hope not) - Weir, Boyd, Cuellar, Davis

In - the speculation has started already! Kenny Miller (good replacement for Cousin if Smith persists in playing 4-5-1 in Europe), plus Lafferty according to the Record.

There will be cash to spend, and if Smith keeps the same success rate as he had this season we'll be much stronger for it. I just hope that he can hold on to Cuellar and Weir - at least until the CL qualification rounds are over. Stability is important with such important games so early in the season
87

Publilius Syrus,

26/05/2008 22:57:31
#87 Fannyeant.

Go outside ?

Chance would be a fine thing.
I`ve another 5 to do.

Tough.
Isn`it.

88

Publilius Syrus,

C.I.S. follow followed by S.C.ScandalContinues !!! 26/05/2008 23:05:23
Anyway,it`ll be interesting with Dundee United preparing to drag the SFA and Rearrangers through the courts during the closed season.

Plus dont forget the City Of London Police have still to report into their findings against Rearrangers and their involvemment or not into fraudulent and corrupt practises.

Squeeky bum time for Rearrangers and their fanz is only just beginning.
isn`t it.
89

Richardinho,

26/05/2008 23:06:13
#90

By your own admission, that's 9 players who quite probably are on their way out. Add to that Naysmyth and Burke who are long term injured, and it's hard not to conclude that Rangers have a hell of a lot of rebuilding to do. I personally would not complain if we didn't bring any new players over the summer at Celtic. I don't think we need to.

Add to that that we have a fantastic manager in Gordon Strachan-three league titles in a row for him, this one the greatest of them all when he has succeeded against the most incredible odds.

On the other hand, that's three league championships in a row that Walter Smith has now lost to Celtic (including 97). There must be serious question marks a