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Have Hearts surrendered all ambition?



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Published Date: 24 March 2008
Hearts 0 - 0 Falkirk
"BRING back Beniusis" came the cry as full-time neared. Hearts, apparently, got that desperate. Watching his side fail to register a single shot on target throughout an abject 90 minutes, one supporter was forced, albeit sarcastically, to contemplate the outrageous.
Stephen Frail's attack-minded team selection did little to imbue his side with the necessary craft to unlock resolute Falkirk. Hearts' chances of securing a top-six finish are consequently somewhat reduced with just two games left until the SPL's infamous split. Over in Kaunas, Ricardas Beniusis must be thankful to be well away from it all.

Sent home to Kaunas to think again by Hearts management last week, Beniusis, in truth, would have done nothing to inspire the hosts on Saturday. Infinitely better players – a half-fit Larry Kingston and Ruben Palazuelos, for example – tried manfully to conjure a goalscoring chance, but ultimately fell short.

Falkirk came not to lose, succeeded, and might even have secured a priceless victory on the break as the afternoon dragged on.

Following a performance like this, one can only wonder what plans the ever-insightful Hearts hierarchy have for the short to medium-term future.

Drawing with St Mirren and Falkirk doesn't become such a well-supported club – one with the undoubted potential to be Scotland's third best, but which is suffering from gross mis- management by the owner and his conglomerate of hapless henchmen.

How Frail is expected to qualify the team for the top six with only Calum Elliot, Jamie Mole and the occasionally-fit Christian Nade as strikers, is beyond most observers. It might even be beyond Vladimir Romanov, his son Roman, or any other club director if they bothered to turn up and try formulating a properly-informed opinion on the matter before the end of this feckless campaign.

As diplomatic as ever, Frail could only bemoan the shortcomings of those at his disposal on Saturday. Deep down, he knows he is overseeing a side with an inherent need for a striker, although he stopped short of advocating Beniusis' return.

"We were short up front on Saturday because Nade was out," explained the interim manager.

"For anyone who saw the Inverness game, he linked really well with Calum.

"He has this pelvis problem otherwise he'd be playing, so we do lack options up there. Nade and Elliot did well at Inverness but we can't get them on the pitch for a sustained period.

"Calum is suffering from a lack of confidence, big time. I still believe the boy's a good player, you don't just turn into a bad player. I think he's intelligent but he's definitely suffering from a lack of confidence and no wonder.

"It's difficult for the lad. He performed well up at Inverness under a little less pressure away from home. Nade got all the plaudits, but Calum worked extremely hard that day and scored two goals. I just hope it turns for him."

Rather than turning for him on the weekend, supporters turned against him – a minority of home fans jeered Hearts' 68th minute substitution, though it wasn't clear if it was due to Elliot departing or Jamie Mole coming on.

"That doesn't help any player," continued Frail. "The fans are entitled to come, pay their money and criticise.

"They're just as frustrated as the rest of us, but it doesn't help having the fans on players' backs. It actually makes it worse. We haven't lost the game but it's a major blow, a major disappointment and I'm very frustrated.

"Even if we don't make the top six, I won't be letting anyone sit and think we can just peter out through to the end of the season and maybe finish eighth or ninth. That isn't acceptable. We need to finish as high as possible. We want to be in the top six but it won't be a successful season even if we do."

Frail's plans were hindered considerably when injury forced Deividas Cesnauskis off after 15 minutes. Kingston retreated from his advanced midfield role as Audrius Ksanavicius took over in support of Elliot.

Referee Charlie Richmond had sided with Falkirk keeper Robert Olejnik seconds earlier in a contentious incident five yards outside the visitors' penalty area. Saulius Mikoliunas latched on to a through ball and unleashed a first-time shot which appeared to strike the outrushing Olejnik around the upper arm, yet play continued.

Play also continued a minute from the break when Patrick Cregg, the most impressive player in an accomplished Falkirk side, made a studs-first tackle on Robbie Neilson. This time, Richmond witnessed everything and even spoke to Cregg to warn him off a repeat. Giving a foul, though, seemed beyond the official.

Between those incidents, Lee Wallace breathed easy after tripping Graham Barrett and denying the Falkirk striker a clear run at goal – Barrett had been flagged offside a millisecond before the full-back's misdemeanour.

"I feel a little bit let down because I don't think Barrett was offside when he was sent through and clipped," complained John Hughes.

"I'll have to look at it again but I feel the assistant referee has got that wrong. But I'm delighted for my boys because of the way we played.

"That was Patrick Cregg's best game for us and Kevin McBride was excellent alongside him. Boys like Tam Scobbie, Scott Arfield and Darren Barr, who have come through our academy, epitomise what we're trying to do at Falkirk."

In the context of the top six, a point was considerably more useful to Hughes than Frail, given that Falkirk remain three points clear of Hearts in sixth place.

"The overall summing up is that we picked the wrong option or played the wrong pass or cross in the final third and didn't put Falkirk under enough pressure at the back," said Frail.

"I thought we controlled the game for large periods without having any real chances at goal.

"We had to change things after 15 minutes when Cesnauskis went off. Ksanavicius is accustomed to that role so we put Larry wider on the right. I think we huffed and puffed for large periods.

"Ksanavicius had a cross near the end in acres of space and played it long to the back post, so we didn't get anything out of it. Calum had a chance in the first half and should maybe have slid Kingston in, but decided to shoot. These were the wrong options."

It could also be construed that allowing Roman Bednar, Michal Pospisil and Andrius Velicka to leave Tynecastle this season were similarly careless manoeuvres.

"If Velicka had been playing on Saturday, were there any chances he could have turned into a goal? I don't think there were," said Frail.

"He's gone, he's no longer a Hearts player and we can't hanker for things that aren't here. We can't keep coming in after every draw or defeat saying 'I wish we had Velicka' because where would we stop?"

Equally, Hearts can't continue selling off their primary assets. In all seriousness, Beniusis was never one of them, but one has to wonder where it will stop and where the club will be languishing when it does.


The full article contains 1204 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Indigo Nightlight,

24/03/2008 12:10:29
I don't think the boos were for Elliot or Mole, more the fact Frail was bringing off our sole forward in a game we needed to win and sticking with 1 up front. Complete lack of ambition from the management.
2

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 24/03/2008 12:14:43
Happy to post first (if it is first) and give my view.
Hearts were absolutely clueless.
Apart from Ruben and Larry we had no creativity and little nous.
As for this crap about Elliot, face facts Shaggy, the boy is just not up to this level.
Saturday could well see the last "must win" game for Hearts this season.
Then we can get round to the subject of who "must go".
3

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 24/03/2008 12:16:54
Meant to add, that "We lost all ambition" when we failed to replace George Burley with someone as good as he was and is.
4

Humble Jambo,

Anywhere but Tynecastle 24/03/2008 12:21:33
This was all so predictable. Dismissing an enormously talented and ambitious manager and drafting in a series of individuals who would bend to the whim of the Oligarch. It was left to a minority of strong and talented players to be cast in the role of the resistance and they were dispatched mercilessly. We are left with a pub team on professional wages. I am not saying that there is no talent in the ranks, but what there is not managed or deployed effectively. The talented few are not identifying themselves with the cause preferring instead to remain in a protective cocoon of "lack of fitness" or "niggling injury" in the hope of re-emerging next season in another league with a club managed professionally. Who can blame them? There is some excellent young talent at Tynecastle, but to whom on the staff do they look for inspiration and leadership? To whom do they look to learn even the basic values of the game? I have been a fan for longer than I care to admit and during those years have witnessed some dreadful games and seen many players who never should have been in a Hearts first team jersey, but the current 11 are in many ways the worst. I have seen better Hearts teams relegated. And it could have been so different. Being a fan, having faith, believing, is an appropriate position to take but not to the level where evidence, reason and argument are ignored. The only weapon of resistance supporters have is their attendance. Withdraw this now as I have done. Romanov and his backers have only invested some spare cash. Over the years we have invested much more. It is time to use what strength we have. By the way, what are the chances of Andy Webster ever being picked by George Burley?
5

Conran,

Husref Musemic's twin brother 24/03/2008 12:22:43
completely agree with #1. I couldn't believe what I was seeing on a must win game. Terrible performance which did nothing but fill me with anger.

In a way Im glad I will not be at the game next week!
6

BRUHibs,

24/03/2008 12:27:26
As have Hibs, which will not get any better as the glory hunters continue on their quest via the M8. Gotta face it - we will always play for 3rd place as there are just not enough numbers without the glory hunters. I'm amazed how many old firm are on this site and it say's it all. Would this be the same with the Herald?

Well at least Hibs can go for 3rd place this year, Hibs played for a draw on Saturday and Hearts for survival - sad really. Hearts are in a stranglehold though with mad Vlad.

Possibility about being ambitious in the future would be IMPROVED BY a shared stadia, say 35k capacity, but multipurpose ensuring that both can rake in investment and income. That's common sense ambition. Until then asolutely no challenge to the old firm unless it's the odd blip.
7

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 12:46:01
#6
BRU

Ive been in favour of a shared stadia between hibs and hearts for long enough, financially it would make sense to split the running of a stadium down the middle reducing overheads for both clubs but also the extra revenue that could be brought about by creating a stadium the capital can be proud of.

I remember even the mad one saying his vision was to have a multi purpose stadium in edinburgh where both teams could share, he said this a couple of years ago, but petrie and co dismissed it immediately. I think 35k might sound ok but if both Edinburgh clubs were to chllenge and be succesfull then having the provision to increase should be there, Something like stade de france where the capacity can be reduced or increased by having seating stored under the stands which can be brought out, so 35k with provision there to increase to possibly 50k-60k, it would attract big pop concerts, there could be athletics held there,Euro cup finals, other sporting events etc. all this could be extra revenue for both teams, allowing both to compete more with the OF.
8

Robert Bonaly,

East Lothian 24/03/2008 12:46:16
So long as Frail keeps on thinking that Elliot is a good player, we are "doomed" . He might be able to cut it in the lower league echelons but he sure aint going to be able to do so in the SPL. The shot he had in the second half that went out for a throw-in was a classic example of how bad he really is. The one in the first half their keeper saved was another - a natural finisher would have stuck that chance away without any problem. I suspect Frail is "bigging him up" because he knows he has no other options available to him with the number of strikers we have got rid off in recent months. However, insulting our intelligence by telling us he is a good player does not cut it for me or I am sure many thousands more - he does not have it, so end of on that subject please Mr Frail !!! It also only goes to prove Frail is not the man for the job either with the way he has conducted himself on this particular issue in recent months. He also clearly has no idea how to motivate the players,which was self-evident with Saturday's abysmal performance. The cries for him to be given the job on a permanent basis by the likes of Neilson should be ignored,as they know a new broom will be sweeping them away very quickly - all down to self preservation on all their parts it seems to me !!!
9

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 12:52:00
#6 - Shared stadium? Why on earth would the Hibs board want to go into partnership with a club whose finances are as rocky and badly managed as those of Hearts?

I am sure STF would be happy to let out ER to Hearts on alternate Saturdays - provided the rent is paid in advance, the owner has proved unreliable when it comes to paying bills.

Speculating to accumulate can sometimes be called ambitious, though football is littered with clubs who have tried and failed - eg Leeds, Gretna. Running up a £38m debt over less than a decade just to struggle to make the top half of the SPL split is not ambition, it is fiscal lunacy.
10

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 13:03:24
#9
That 38million was not run up in less than a decade, again like many you post without knowing FACTS 22million was run up pre romanov. And what makes you an expert to say it is badly run? fo you have knowledge of Vlads finances and UKIO's finances. I can only agree to the fact that 38million while it might not look good and would certainly be unsustainable for any team outwith the OF does not mean it is unsustaineble to Hearts, Only yesterday Vlad was quoted saying UKIO are happy about the current arrangement based on the value of Vlads shares with the bank and also his personal wealth, basically Vlad is acting as guarantor to that debt, in the same way STF has and is acting as guarantor for ventures hibs have taken on ie, new stand.

I can see your objections to a shared stadium many people including Hearts fans wouldnt be too happy it would mean both clubs uprooting from their spiritual homes soemthing i would regret as well, however IF it was to improve both teams and allow them to compete with the OF where would objections stand then, after all we follow our teams to see them win we both want to see trohpies we both would love for our teams to have a crack at the league and/or champs league, if a shared stadium would allow this to become possible then i would be for it. Surely your not one of the people that would rather cut your nose of to spite your face.
11

BRUHibs,

24/03/2008 13:04:35
#9
Hearts will not go out of business and will eventually move on from their current crisis - hmmmmmmmm.
Bearing this in mind the Edinburgh clubs should spearhead an ambitious challenge, this includes getting revenues from elsewhere plus sound investment. I believe that both clubs are not fulfilling their potentials and could challenge, but the basis must be more ambitious than they have today.
#7 you are spot on.
12

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 24/03/2008 13:06:07
Hearts won't be ground sharing with Hibs, so forget that!
Whether we remain at Tynie or not, is still debateable, but not this notion of sharing with Hibs and NEVER going to Easter Road to see the Hearts, every other week.
Oooooh I came over all woozie there.
13

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 13:22:21
#10 - "That 38million was not run up in less than a decade, again like many you post without knowing FACTS 22million was run up pre romanov"

Yes, I know that slightly over half of it was run up pre-Romanov - ie since 1998, or as we Hobos say "in less than a decade"

"And what makes you an expert to say it is badly run?"

Only an ostrich would try to argue that it is being well run. So, how much fun is it with your head down there in the sand?

"might not look good"

You cannot be serious with this masterpiece of understatement.

"only yesterday Vlad was quoted saying UKIO are happy about the current arrangement based on the value of Vlads shares with the bank and also his personal wealth"

Only yesterday? The interview was two months old and full of meaningless platitudes. You are the first Hearts fan I have encountered who is taking it seriously, far less any neutral. It has been widely ridiculed and rubbished by all concerned.

"basically Vlad is acting as guarantor to that debt, in the same way STF has and is acting as guarantor for ventures hibs have taken on ie, new stand"

No, UKIO are earning massive amounts of interest on the debt. Hibs do not need a guarantor against loans, we are a viable company with a proven revenue stream and practically no debt.

"I can see your objections to a shared stadium many people including Hearts fans wouldnt be too happy it would mean both clubs uprooting from their spiritual homes soemthing i would regret as well"

I have no objection to a shared stadium, my objection would be to going into partnership with a failing business saddled with unsustainable debt.

"however IF it was to improve both teams and allow them to compete with the OF where would objections stand then, after all we follow our teams to see them win we both want to see trohpies we both would love for our teams to have a crack at the league and/or champs league"

A shared stadium would not strengthen Hibs, our stadium is paid for and
14

Hans Eskillson,

Glasgow 24/03/2008 13:22:40
Dear JT&T,

Ghengis is on the money as regards to the rate at which yam debt has escalated. As of May 1997 yammish debt stood at less than £2million, so the yams have managed to rack up £36 million debts in a decade - some going that.

Clearly, the minimum possible investment (to keep it legal) has been made in the stadium over that time, and the vast majority of debt has been rung up in the pursuit of trophies.

Excluding ground investment, around £30 million has been spent chasing gold. Maybe yams feel that £15 mllion a trophy has been worth every penny. However, for me, it is not a price I would want my club to have paid.
15

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 13:29:18
#13
Same fair points, can you answer this though, where do hibs have a stream of income outside football? At least whether you want to believe it or not IF the redevelopment of Tynecastle goes ahead Hearts will have a stream of income from outseide football.
A shared mulit purpose stadium would also have provided this.

16

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 13:40:43
#15 - IF the development goes ahead. It is a big, big if. And even if the Tynecastle development does go ahead, and even if it does make money (which many independent financial experts doubt, one of the reasons why there has been little UK interest in the investment opportunity - which is another reason why it may not go ahead, UBIG can't or won't finance all of it), the profits wil go to Vlad, not the club. Just like the profits from player transfers.

Where Hibs' income stream originates is irrelevant. Our books balance. Our wage bill is within the 40/45% of turnover recommended by the auditors. We are not spending £8-10m a season more than we take in, as Hearts have done for the past two seasons.

In short, we're not looking like going bust any time soon. So we don't need to go into partnership with Vlad's unviable company. I assume that like the UK financial sector, the prospect of getting into bed with Vlad McMad is not any more enticing to the Hibs board than it was to Eddie Thompson at Dundee Utd.
17

victorian,

24/03/2008 13:44:29
#16,

which independent financial experts?
do you have links to post up to that effect?
do you have proof that profits will go to vlad?
do you have proof that player sale proceeds go to vlad?

18

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 13:49:07
#15

The difference is Hibs do not need one as we are living within our means and the income from football including tv, sponsorship and advertising etc is enough. Hibs are almost free of debt will soon have a completed stadium and will then be in the envious position where all we will have to spend the majority of our income on will be the playing side.

This will mean no more need to sell players, increased wages attracting better players and will have us challenging at the top end of the league for many years to come.

Also there is no guarantee that just because you build a hotel it will be a success and even if it is, it will be at the lower end of the scale and will likely take over 20 years before showing a profit.
19

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 13:55:06
#16

Would that be the same UK financial experts that drew up the business plan saying it was viable and would make money?

Sorry but the drivelings of those wishing i repeat WISHING a venture to fail cannot be taken for FACT or believed.

Like so many im afriad, it pertifies you that Vlad might just succeed in his ambitions and ventures, so much so you cling onto anything negative at all as proof of failings even when there may be evidence from elsewhere to suggest otherwise.

Any new dates for the club going into adminstration on hibs.net yet? after all you all belived it when hibs.net posted it way back in december even after the 3 and 4th dates were posted you all still believed it. Why was this? because you wanted it to be true, when people want something so badly they will believe anything and grasp at anything in hope.
20

Pinehurstjambo,

nc 24/03/2008 13:55:18
What about Makela for this saturday? Him and Nade will offer far more threat that the other pash we have. It might take all our strikers to come down with the plague for Makela to get a start!!!
21

victorian,

24/03/2008 13:57:29
#18 big rob, i was reading your post and thinking it was looking like some good sense, until the end.

"it will be at the lower end of the scale"

what? what makes someone produce a statement like that?

22

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:00:04
#17, Victoria - you do like to peddle your pedantry all over these threads, don't you, Victoria? Your club is £38m in debt and you want "proof" that there is a wee problem.

We Hobos are straightforward people. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. Or if it looks like a £38m debt, and quacks like a £38m debt, then it probably is a £38m debt.

Let me put your questions back to you. Which independent financial experts have ever suggested anywhere that Hearts are in good shape financially? Do you have links to these experts to post up for we doubtful Hobos? Do you have proof that profits will NOT go to Vlad McMad (such as any indication that he has made any move at all to reduce the club's debt since he took control)? Do you have proof that any significant player sale proceeds have gone anywhere else except to Vlad McMad?

Additionally, do you have any proof that you are not Charlie Mann, the PBS answer to Comical Ali?
23

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 14:01:16
#21

It's hardly going to rival your Sheraton's and Caledonian Hotels is it, its in Gorgie after all.

More likely to be akin to the Holiday Inn Express at around £30 a night, not a lot of profit in that, is there?
24

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:06:22
#22, so basically another example of what goes on on these threads on a continual basis.

1. you make statements of fact that profits from player sales and profits from future commercial revenue streams will go to romanov.

2. hearts fan asks you to provide some evidence to validate your statements.

3. you refuse, make some glib remarks and turn the tables by telling me that i have provide proof to contradict your statements.

why should i have provide proof to either back up or disprove your statements? it was YOU who made them!!!
25

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 14:06:36
#22
Id have thought it would be up to the accusers to provide the evidence behind their conspiracy theories, otherwise its just wild statements and accusations based on nothing but rumour or hear say. Anyone can make up a conspiracy theory based on anything or about anyone, the good conspiracy theories have a little behind them though than just words
26

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:07:39
#19 - anyone can hire consultants to put a business plan together. The hard part is persuading investors to put up the cash. No UK interest in the Tynecastle venture as yet. Similar projects at Kaunas and Ripo are similarly undelivered, btw. Vlad has previous in this sort of scam.

I am not sure that Hibbies are particularly wishing Vlad's schemes to fail. His grandiose pronouncements are just so obviously flawed that it is hard not to have a pop at gullible Yams for swallowing his nonsense hook, line and sinker again and again and again. You did rather stick it to us with all that "big team" pish when Vlad took over, and payback time is quite fun.

More a case of you Yams hoping against hope that there is some way out of the mess into which Vlad has propelled your club, both on and off the pitch. But you can trust Vlad. He told you that himself, so it must be true.
27

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 14:09:10
#22 Ghengis

Don't you realise the rules of this forum as everything has to be proved to Vic and JT & T before it can be taken seriously. They of course can post whatever they likes without any proof.

Also you are not aloud to have a negative opinion about Hearts or have an opinion contrary to them as you will be shot down in flames.

Please stick to the rules before posting.
28

Dood,

24/03/2008 14:09:13
#22 - Now that's a quality reply!!!!

Still appears to be a large amount of 'heads in sand' mentality here. Personally I have no desire to see Hearts go down the tubes and neither does it 'petrify' me that this master plan may actually come to fruition. The biggest point being made here is that there is little credible evidence to suggest that there is any scope for success. The vast majority of Scottish Football sees it, even some of the Hearts fans are starting to see it.

Put quite simply, a £38m debt with little tangible reward so far. How do you put positive spin on that??
29

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:10:29
#23 big rob, do you really think they plan to build a budget hotel of that type? surely more likely they will be looking at the conference market. the fact that it's in gorgie won't be an issue, there's a new novatel just gone up at south gyle, not exactly the monte carlo of the north!!!

30

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:13:19
#24 and #25 - I put it back to you to produce any evidence to disprove that Hearts are in a financial mess. If you are unable to do so, fine. No-one on here who is not a fully paid up VladSheep will be surprised at that. I'm not going to waste my time unpicking minor details, anyone with half an active brain (which seems to rule out all the Vlad apologists) can put the various bits of the jigsaw together and come up with a less than pretty picture.

No conspiracy theory, btw. I have never claimed that thee is a conspiracy, just that all of the available evidence including circumstantial evidence tends to show that Hearts are in deep trouble.

But of course Vlad says you can trust him, so that can't be true.
31

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 14:13:50
well guys would love to stay and debate but the pub is calling me for a good old swallie, enjoy your easter monday guys.
32

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:15:41
#27 big rob, sorry again but that's just another glib remark to cloud the issue. there are no problems whatsoever with hibs fans posting their opinions on any issue regarding hearts.

the problem is it's always done in a way to represent their OPINION as a fact, see post #16.

it's quite simple, if opinions are presented as opinions then nobody can argue. if opinions are presented as statements of fact, i will most certainly be arguing.

33

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 14:16:08
#29

Difference being Viv is that the Gyle is the major area in Edinburgh for business.
34

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 14:17:32
#33

Sorry Vic just called you Viv, probably suits you better. arf arf
35

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:19:45
#30, that's not how you presented your thoughts at #16.

if you want to carry on making statements like they were accepted facts, do not be surprised if you keep on getting the same requests for proof and evidence.

it's like me saying that STF is planning to sell off easter road for flats, not interested in providing proof, instead i tell you that it's you that needs to prove otherwise.

36

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:21:55
#27, Big Rob - thanks for putting me straight on that. I see that JT and T's reponse to my requests for a similar standard of proof Vladwise (now, there's a contradiction in terms) has been to bail out to the pub, and that Victoria's response has been to confirm your description of the situation.

I understand now, Victoria - if it appears in a Yam post no matter how expressed, it is a valid opinion. If it appears in a Hobo post, no matter how expressed, it is a glib misrepresentation of fact. So that's that then.

Why don't you go and join JT and T in the pub? You can spend the afternoon reinforcing each others' fantasies without the risk of Hobos injecting any unwelcome reality into your delusions.
37

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:24:20
#36, all very well but your #16 post is there in black & white, it can't be changed.

if you don't want to be challenged, why not refrain from misrepresenting your personal opinions as statements of accepted fact?

38

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 14:33:59
#29

What I would like to emphasise, is if the UK is indeed facing an economic slow-down, or a recession as some pundits put it, and if history is anything to go by, the leisure industry is usually one of the hardest hit.

Top hotels like The Ritz, Savoy, etc aren't overly exposed to volatility, but those at the lower to middle end of the market are. OK, maybe during the summer it may do a decent trade, assuming that tourists of sufficient numbers continue to visit Edinburgh, but what about the barren months? How many empty hotel rooms are there in Edinburgh from Sept - March? This project most certainly isn't devoid of risk.

Also, from looking at the plans, the UBIG hotel seems nothing more than a glorified Travelodge, and by my reckoning, that's possibly what it will end up as, £35 per night rooms et al.
39

tomias,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:38:02
I have a wee post on Boyle's cartoon; there are rumours( actuallu more than that) about the viabilty of the Scottish league; inter team banter etc will not help at all.A review of league football accounts is not a happy sight.
Me? only three games in 70 + years,but with a sense of sporting valuations.
From a commercial view point the picture,alas, is unpleasant indeed
40

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 14:38:15
#35 + 37, Victoria - I wasn't aware that there were rules as to how I choose to present my thoughts here, even less that YOU had any say in the matter.

The difference between you claiming that STF is planning to sell off ER for flats and me claiming, say, that Vlad is pocketing the PBS transfer cash himself is that on the basis of common knowledge and on balance of probability, no-one is going to give any credence to YOUR statement. On the other hand not many outside the hardcore Vladsheep are going to dispute MY statement all that seriously.

Neither can be conclusively disproved at this time, but one is MUCH more plausible than the other.

On your latest post, if you have no coherent arguments to counter my claims other than the fact that I have not bothered to produce incontrovertible proof for every minor detail, why not refrain from misrepresenting your lack of a defence as valid objection?
41

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:43:23
#38 big rob, this is one of those double edged sword type issues.

firstly hearts are panned for the possibility that they will be taking on an extra £50M debt for the complex. cries of financial suicide etc considering the current credit crisis.

hearts are then lampooned as a result of the apparent 1 year deferral of the start of the construction. cries of "it will never happen, it's all a con".

isn't there the remotest chance that the reason why it's been delayed is because of the global credit crisis? that would be a piece of good sense to hold off from taking on the debt until the financial picture stabilises or becomes clearer.

the trouble here is that people always manage to find some way to make trouble or ridicule rather than find another explanation for things. maybe it's uncomfortable for certain people to think that vlad is capable of good decisions as well as bad ones.

42

victorian,

24/03/2008 14:48:13
#40, ok then, "balance of probability" it is. a caveat which did not appear at post #16.

nobody is making up rules, nobody is telling people how to post, the choice is entirely yours (as it should be), if you want to misrepresent your personal opinions as statements of accepted fact, you will continue to get the same argument from me.

unless of course it's YOU who is making up rules and saying that i am not entitled to challenge your posts?

two can play at that game pal.
43

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:03:49
#42 - If this was a Court of Law I might well have led my original evidence at #16 with a caveat regarding balance of probability. But it is not. It is a fan's forum on the local newspaper. I think those who post here pretty well understand the ground rules. Maybe you need to lighten up a bit, Victoria, though I can well understand why yer average Jambo finds it hard to avoid black depression at the moment.

You ARE telling people how to post, you know. You are presenting as a FACT your personal opinion that I misrepresent my personal opinions as statements of accepted fact, when I think those who read my posts can work them out for themselves what I am saying. I don't recall any of your posts, or anyone else's posts, being suffixed with a list referencing the sources of all your claims.

You are entitled to challenge my posts all you want. You will find that if you put it up, I am quite content to knock it down (never very difficult). But your habit of demanding proof for every minor statement with which you happen to disagree but cannot refute with rational argument is irritating.

So I am happy to play at any game, PAL, except one where you think you are entitled to be referee as well as participant.
44

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:08:20
#41 - isn't there the remotest chance, Victoria, that the reason why it has been delayed is because like the similar earlier proposals for both Kaunas and Ripo, Vlad has no real intention of proceeding, it is just one of those rabbits which he appears adept at producing from hats to deflect attention from other problems?

If he is reviewing the position in view of the global credit crisis, what is to stop him announcing that? It would be a bit more convincing than the current silence maybe.
45

victorian,

24/03/2008 15:09:58
#43, well i guess that makes us both accusing the other of the same thing. both are entitled to post whatever they like. both are entitled to respond in whatever way they like.

it's an easy cop out to dismiss a challenge to a post by accusing the challenger of trying to make up the rules, imo.

46

victorian,

24/03/2008 15:11:51
#44, maybe there is, maybe not. seems like an expensive and convoluted way to create a distraction though.

47

Hib7062,

The pub 24/03/2008 15:13:50
Victorian - can you provide me with an explanation as to how Hearts will pay off their debt IF they get the go ahead to build these offices / hotel etc? For an uneducated Hobo like me, the Yams debt will go up to roughly £80-90million. How will a small scale hotel and office accommodation recoup that sort of money and how will it affect the clubs ability to improve the playing side of things?
48

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:18:47
victorian, you'r wasting you'r time on the fat hibbie and ghengis, you have asked ghengis to provide proof and he can't and his mate the rob fella is just acting like jabba's wee pet on a lead, the hibbies head's up ghengis's butt(all the way to the shoulders).
49

victorian,

24/03/2008 15:19:30
#47, as i understand it, they are firstly looking for outside investment for part / all of the cost of the construction. presumably going into some kind of partnership with a hotel chain. if they have to fund the thing themselves, i gather the plan would be to sell off the resultant assets to interested buyers and / or retain aspects which will provide revenue streams.

only as i understand the situation to be, i am not in receipt of the full business plan just the same as the hibs fans who speculate on here.

50

victorian,

24/03/2008 15:21:02
#48 jkm, lol!!! in the interest of peace i was refraining from putting it in those terms but i see where you're coming from.

51

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 15:38:42
#48

jkm, you do talk sh*t, your just doing the same thing to Vic that you have accused me of doing, doh.

Do you have anything constructive to say apart from dish out abuse, no very clever are you?
52

Anglo Jambo,

Chorley 24/03/2008 15:53:32
I Know I will be slated for writing this by some stubborn asses who can't se beyond their traditional views. I would rather be watching Hearts at Murrayfield with a decent manager and a decent side than watching the crap we are served up at Tynecaslle just now. Then we are told the same rubbish every week with a caretaker manager who hasn't got a clue, yet he tries to convince the fans give certain players a chance. Caretaker manager, caretaker in a school perhaps. I would even watch them at Easter Road if we had a decent team. To me Heart of Midlothian Football Team is more important to me than where we play.
53

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 15:59:48
fat hobo, where have you been constructive in any of you'r posts today ??, as to me talking sh*t what have you and yer wee pal ghengis been doing from day one on these threads ?? yes thats right spouting p*sh !!, the guy asks for you to back up you'r claim but suprise suprise none given !, you had better run along ghengis wants his backrub, how clever are you ??
54

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 16:06:18
#53

OK brainless one (you started the abuse) I take it "been constructive" (as you say) is agreeing with Vic and JT & T and only saying nice things about Hearts.

You obviously would not see the truth if it slapped you in the face (and by the standard of your posts you must have been slapped a few times).

Your a joke son so run along and come back when you've something worthwhile to say, I won't hold my breath waiting. lol
55

reekielum,

Edinburgh 24/03/2008 16:06:18
Tick Tock Tick Tock..Herts are going bust
O my sides
56

Another Albert,

In a snowy place 24/03/2008 16:13:03
Jings - that was awfy serious for a while, but pleasantly articulate for all that - most of the time anyway.

Is it okay to chip in? Ok then.

If we take the facts out of it, cos most of us don't have them in truth, we can maybe progress on the strength of emotion. If I was a Hearts fan (and I ain't) then I'd be worried. I'd be worried cos of the lack of facts emanating, and because of the broken promises, and cos my team is in reverse. The last one is immutable. Then there's the gradually disappearing Romanovs - not anywhere near as visible as they once were.

Ok, our lot are not exactly progressing at full speed on all fronts but there is tangible evidence of gradual improvement. So, as a Hibbie I can be relatively positive, but nowhere near satisfied. If I was of the maroon persuasion then I'd need a lot of persuading that all will turn out well.

What I find it difficult to understand is the blind faith in a concept that is not making forward progress and hasn't for the last two and a bit seasons. £38m in debt just seems super-scary when you add £50m odd on top of it.

I don't have the financial answers, I don't pretend to have. Neither do the Vlad Apologists - but they do seem to have faith. And businesses do not succeeed through faith alone.

57

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 16:23:14
#54, what is the truth then fat boy ?? you tell me what you know about hearts and you can start with the questions that victorian asked earlier, is that so hard ? come on chubby prove us all wrong and show some evidence, that is after all what you would like more than anything eh ?? to shut us all up. i'll wait for a a bit for you to provide it but as you said my pie eating pal, i won't hold my breath !!.
58

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 16:36:23
#57

Sorry, but no chance of me debating with a grade 1 plonker as yourself.

Do you have any opinions of your own?
59

The Gorgie Boys Are In Town,

24/03/2008 16:38:37
Ah well another day and what a surprise the usual drones on here venting their spleen about HEARTS FINANCES

Boring and so predictable honestly no point in getting involved with them as has been pointed out it's like talking to repetative brick walls at times.

Think Hearts finances are prbably more talked about than the whole of the worlds finances put together. The American and European and Asian Stock markets and money markets pale into insignificance to these people but 38 million in debt oh god melt down. It's not ideal the debt obviously and every fan would be concerened but at the end of the day i can see what he's trying to do. May as well stick another couple of million on to the tab and bring in a striker and a right full back and a couple of years contact for the new manager.
60

Manuel Antonio Noriega - alleged perp. - alleging,

24/03/2008 16:44:15
Operation PAGGER needs to be rolled out:

P ay
A t
G ate
G orgie
E ngage
R omanov

...it is so far so BAD for the Gorgie faithful...we have sat back and waited patiently for Vladimir Romanov to get HMFC moving up the league ...what do we get? A marketing campaign to believe Elliot is a marauder and Makela doesn't exist.

Audry, Miko, Cesny, Zali are the best of the Lithuanian contingent and they are not consistent enough for our club. It wouldn't surprise me if Driver, Berra and Kingston are sold and replaced by more Kaunas feeder fodder. Its killing our youth system.

Don't blindly renew season tickets - PAY AT THE GATE - and lets see if the footballing setup improves or not?

I'm saying this before the split, so I can't be accused of sour grapes. If hearts find themselves in the top half or bottom half after the split - the last 5 games will not be fun with Adrian Mole and E L L I O T up front - so either way, operation P.A.G.G.E.R. needs to come into the mix.

There should be a PAGGER club where you show proof of previously holding an ST and now joining the PAGGER cause....proof of belonging to PAGGER should be created (tshirts, membership cards etc) and maybe if PAGGER lean on HMFC they can negotiate better communication?

The question and answer session that was in the last proggrame didn't convince me that Vlad sitting a long way away from Tynie has our football club's success as his first and foremost objective.

Operation PAGGER is the only way forward because an oligarch like Romanov/UBIG will just steamroller over us, laugh at us and keep farting in our faces.
61

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 16:51:09
#58, didn't think you could back anything up !, you are just another hobo mouthpiece that spends all his time(every singl day) on hearts threads, why no pals you could talk to ??, is there a mrs frth ? i'd be suprised. plonker ?? get you'r act together slimcea boy and maybe one day if you work hard you could work your way up to be a plonker (wouldn't count on it though).
62

Bleeding Heart...,

24/03/2008 16:59:44
#43 Ghengis - I think you've shot yourself in the foot here.

You acknowledge that you have alleged a number of things "on the basis of common knowledge and on balance of probability", but don't think you need to preface any allegations you make with this caveat because you're not in a court of law!!!

That won't do. It's not enough to suggest that you "think those who read my posts can work them out for themselves what I am saying". Isn't this a huge assumption on your part?

In any debate you need to make clear the difference between opinion & fact. Those who masquerade their opinions as facts aren't interested in serious discussion - they merely want their view to be accepted as the truth. Now, you don't want to be accused of that, do you?

Looked at from a Hearts perspective, just why would a Hibs fan be keen to have accepted as fact the notion that Romanov was guilty of the things you allege?

You've gone on to say to Victorian that his "habit of demanding proof for every minor statement with which you happen to disagree but cannot refute with rational argument is irritating".

If you're making an allegation, wouldn't you agree the onus is on you to substantiate the allegation?

Of course, you could defuse any request for "proof" by prefacing your allegation with the aforementioned caveat...

63

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 17:02:57
#61

You really do talk cr ap don't you, all you can do is spout abuse at anyone who you happen to disagree with.

You still have not said anything, constructive, or otherwise about Hearts, football, anything really except have a go at me, what a saddo.
64

victorian,

24/03/2008 17:03:44
#61 jkm, they don't have any facts. they don't have any intention of producing facts. they don't like it when asked to produce facts. when asked to produce facts, they tend to revert to the standard response - 'you're trying to make up the rules on what folk post'.

it's all part of the emerging pattern that is that the hibs threads are for them to discuss football, the hearts threads are for them to have a laugh on.

this is personal opinion and not a statement of fact.

65

victorian,

24/03/2008 17:06:34
#62 BH, exactly right and set out better than i could have done myself. i tug my forelock to you.

66

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 17:30:22
#63, no answers then ??
67

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 17:31:14
#64

ok victor you have some idiot to back you up whoopey doo, I happen to have presented quite a few facts over the last week or so but hey ho you lot just keep believing.

Indeed one of my posts last week was used by the Scotsman the following day (the story about the police terror fears for Hearts Stadium). I have never seen you give proof on anything you say and you say a lot. Nobody ever claims that what we are saying is 100% fact but a lot of it seems very close to the truth to me.

I do honestly hope that it all works out well for Hearts in the future as Edinburgh does need both clubs doing well.

However some of the plonkers that post on here at times have me wishing that the opposite will be the case. Anyway I'm off to the pub so I'll leave you and your followers to live in their fantasy world where a £38 million debt is ambition not financial suicide. Byeeee.
68

Big Rob the Hibbie,

24/03/2008 17:35:18
#66

See #58
69

victorian,

24/03/2008 17:49:32
#67 big rob, to be fair you are one of the better ones i must admit.

i think the reason why you don't see me producing facts about stuff is that i try to steer clear of presenting things as fact when i can't be sure they are. although i'm sure there have been occasions when i have.
70

walkie,

24/03/2008 17:50:40
some good points raised on both sides alas jkm you are just a yam fud.
71

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 18:04:21
#70, aye ye talk the talkie but no the walkie.
72

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 18:07:11
#69, victor if fat rob is one of the better ones what does that say about the rest ??.
73

victorian,

24/03/2008 18:11:08
#72 jkm, some of them barely walk upright. nah honestly, big rob is ok, he talks a lot of sense.

74

Bleeding Heart...,

24/03/2008 18:12:57
#67 Rob - For what it's worth, I think you've been treated a tad harshly by "jkm".

Sometimes we can all be a over-zealous in "defending" our team, etc.

As Victorian says, you're a guy who comes on here and talks in a balanced way, and most of us appreciate that.

Enjoy your beer...
75

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 18:14:30
#73, victor you are probably right about him, ithink the jabba's pet jibe got to him lol .
76

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 18:19:55
Theres a lot worse than Big Rob on these forums, he makes good points a lot of the time and can see out a good debate even if he has to include the odd dig and jibe but thats banter and part and parcel of supporting rival teams, and its acceptable. Id much rather see Big Rob and others like him posting on here than certain other cretins thats for sure.

Enjoy the pint Rob Im not long back myself, seriously considering a wee night time session if the missus will let me out lol.

77

jkm,

edinburgh 24/03/2008 18:20:42
rob if i'v been out of order towards you i am honestly sorry, it seems i'v taken my fraustration of hearts being p*sh this season and hibs being well' hibs out on you and to be fair i got it in return but like i say if i was out of order i'm sorry.
78

JamboThrough&Through,

24/03/2008 19:05:23
#77 JKM

Were all guilty of getting frustrated and at times being a little over protective of our club, especially when its comes from Hibs fans. Your not alone there.
79

SirSerg',

24/03/2008 19:16:56
Quote from article:

"Following a performance like this, one can only wonder what plans the ever-insightful Hearts hierarchy have for the short to medium-term future."

A hotel. Offices. A restaurant. Serviced apartments. Debt of £100M.

80

The Gorgie Boys Are In Town,

24/03/2008 19:44:02
SirSerg

Quote from me:

You are a bit of a f.anny!