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Scotland 0 - 0 Norway: Scotland's World Cup hopes dealt severe blow



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Published Date: 11 October 2008
Chris Iwelumo marked his international debut with the worst miss of his career as Scotland were held to a goalless draw in their crucial World Cup qualifier against Norway.
The Wolves striker came off the bench in a bid to salvage the nation's hopes at Hampden – but will instead be forever haunted by the moment he blew Scotland's hopes of a vital victory.

With both sides regarded as the strongest challengers for the coveted runners-up spot behind favourites Holland, this was regarded as a high-stakes game where a win was essential for George Burley's men.

Having collected just four points from three games, Scotland's hopes of booking their place at South Africa in 2010 is already hanging in the balance with a daunting trip to Holland now awaiting them in March.

With Stephen McManus suspended and Kris Commons injured, Burley made two changes from the win in Iceland, with James Morrison and David Weir both drafted into the team and Darren Fletcher wearing the captain's armband as he earned his 40th cap.

Despite plenty of talk from the Scotland camp about the need for a positive approach to this game, Burley opted to deploy James McFadden on his own up front, leaving both Kris Boyd and Iwelumo on the bench.
Norway were boosted by the news that Steffen Iversen had been passed fit while goalkeeper Jon Knudsen made his international debut for the Scandinavians.

Scotland dominated the opening spell, winning a couple of corners, before Kirk Broadfoot set up Morrison for the first real chance. The West Brom midfielder tried his luck from just inside the box but the shot was weak and comfortably collected by Knudsen in the Norway goal.
The visitors had an excellent chance to open the scoring when John Carew exchanged a one-two with Iversen before racing into the box, with only a timely intervention from Gary Caldwell preventing the towering striker from claiming the opener.

Brede Hangeland then saw his downward header bounce past Craig Gordon's left post from a Fredrik Stromstad corner, although the Scotland keeper looked as though he had the header covered anyway.

Norway threatened again when Carew burst past Caldwell and unleashed an angled drive which was parried by Gordon before John Arne Riise blasted the rebound well wide of target as Hampden breathed a collective sigh of relief.

Stromstad then delivered a header to the feet of Carew in front of goal but good defending from Weir denied him a clean shot and his awkwardly struck effort was smothered by Gordon.

Scotland could have snatched the lead before the break when McFadden whipped a great ball across goal for Morrison, who nodded agonisingly over from a tight angle.

Carew had established himself as Norway's biggest threat in the first half so it was no real surprise to see the Aston Villa forward bearing down on goal shortly after the restart, his shot swiped to safety at the near post by Gordon.

With 51 minutes gone, Jon Inge Hoiland picked up the first booking of the game for hauling down Barry Robson and it proved to be a calculated risk worth taking, with Scotland failing to make anything of the free-kick.

A lack of threat up front resulted in the home nation making a double substitution 10 minutes into the second half and Morrison and McFadden were both withdrawn for the introduction of Steven Fletcher and Iwelumo.
The Wolves striker – making his first international appearance at the age of 30 – then squandered an incredible opportunity to mark his debut with a goal within minutes of being on the pitch.

Gary Naysmith was the provider with a superb ball across the face of goal from the left flank and Iwelumo somehow missed the target from a few yards with the gaping net at his mercy, stunning the national stadium into silence.

With time running out for a Scotland winner, Shaun Maloney attempted to place a swerving shot from distance into the keeper's far corner but the effort slipped past the upright instead.

A full-stretch Fletcher and Iwelumo then both failed to connect with a Broadfoot ball that was begging to be stabbed home as the match ended in stalemate.

The full article contains 713 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 October 2008 5:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

yoyo,

11/10/2008 17:45:27
Quite clear that Burley is not the man for the job. A home game we really had to win and he plays one up front and a defenssively setup midfield. Wasn't until he changed to two up front that we looked a team wanting to win. If he'd played two up from the start we would have won this game.
2

Waspy100,

11/10/2008 17:46:31
Not a very convincing performance by Scotland.
Iwelomu miss was shocking
Back to the old huff and puff and nearly qualifying lark.
Nothing really changes much.
Still not given up hope but there will be no high hopes I'm afraid
3

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 17:58:47
A disappointing, although hopefully not disastrous result for Scotland this afternoon, but with the two sides fairly evenly matched and both needing a victory, hardly surprising.

Reading the earlier threads, the tendency of certain posters to turn a Scotland story into yet another OF slanging match is profoundly depressing. Every player who pulls on the dark blue gets my unconditional support for 90 minutes, and my heartfelt thanks if they score a goal or perform well.

Holland will surely win this section with ease, but the race for the play-off slot could be interesting, with both Norway and Macedonia as realistic rivals. Today's other result is surely a foregone conclusion, but the midweek games will provide much food for thought while we sit idle and observe.

Scotland have a half-decent team, but we really need to have our strongest eleven on the field to compete with the better nations. There is no acceptable replacement for Hutton at right-back, Weir has surely signed off from International football today, with McManus a far better long term prospect, and whatever shortcomings Ferguson may be perceived as having, he's definitely more of a leader than any of his midfield colleagues. The sheer workrate and perseverance of Miller would also have been an asset this afternoon, as he tends to pull defenders all over the place and create openings for others.

Not much margin for error left, I'm afraid.
4

!Ya basta!,

11/10/2008 17:59:09
That miss was astonishing and a huge embarrassment that will unfortunately go into the annals.

But worse and more significant was the overall dismal performance, what the hell was he doing playing such a cautious formation when full points were so important?

Every bl**** time, every qualifying group, its torture.
5

Talk o' the Toun,

11/10/2008 18:12:29
If Boyd had been brought on we would have won.However Norway are not a particularly good team and we could beat them in Norway.

2nd place still there to get.
6

THE ANERLEY HIBBY,

LONDON 11/10/2008 18:23:38
Another bizzare starting formation & below par performance bar Brown , Robson & Gordon ...
I said as long ago as March that the Burley / Butcher partnership would be a disaster & low & behold !!!!
I think we'll possibly finish 4th behind Holland / Norway & Macedonia & that really would be shocking !
7

Private Pike,

11/10/2008 18:26:39
A lazy manager means we will coninue to pick mainly from the OF. I have nothing against OF players playng for Scotland but I believe you should have to earn your selection.

Maloney is an example.

A season and half (Was it?) of hardly kicking a ball for Aston Villa. He is transferred to Celtic and after 1 match he is named in the Scotland squad. One match? It cheapens the Scotland team.

Burley, if he stays in the job, needs to get out and watch other teams. Not just when they play the OF. there are good players out there but they don't get a chance.

Broadfoot seems a very decent person but I don't believe there is not a better full back currently paying.

Bemused exile tries to analyse th game today but unfortunately cannot see anything in Scottish football apart from his own team. The OF.

This leads him to seriously suggest that Mcmanus is a good prospect for Scotland. Even most OF supporters don't rate McManus.

We need a quality foreign manager who will resist the pressur from the establishment to go for the OF players regardless.

Burley, once he's picked the available Scottish players from the OF is then allowed to choose non OF players.

We need change bacause it's not working.
8

Daillyman,

11/10/2008 18:26:40
The disappointing thing for me was with Burleys tactics in the opening 50 minutes.

At home needing 3 points and he leaves Faddy on his own up front for the first half. George my son, I have to admit it you do not have the bottle to try to win games from the opening whistle.

Thought at times the team tried to push the ball around but as usual we are hopeless in the final third.

I thought Brown had a decent game in midfield and did well.

I agree with #5 and said last night if Boyd is on the touchline with 20 minutes to go he is the one proven scorer who can come off the bench and get us a goal.

Switching to 2 up front helped, but why did Burley not start with that formation.
9

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 18:31:13
That was Scotland's worst result from the first three games.

It was the equivalent of Celtic's 0v0 against Aalborg in the CL ...potentially fatal and probably prove to be so.

You can't expect anything if you can't win the home games especially against teams of Norway's calibre ...it really has to be 3 points or the party is pretty much over.

So, who will lead Scotland into euro 12 ? That's the only question to arise from today's result.

Which takes us back to the business of the spl , and how The Champions and league leaders Celtic are heading for a 4th consecutive title.

Look out for the fire sale out of ibrox come Xmas if it looks like the Scottish Champions are running away with it.
Minty has one giant turd of a loss hitting his balance sheet next summer, and unless there is a guarantee of CL money next season, he's gonna have to liquidise a few assets here and there.

The only snag is rearrangerz don't have anyone on their books that would bring inmore than £2m-£3m.
Possibly Kevin Thomson might bring in a little bit more than that, but that would be on a good day with a particularly desperate EPL / Championship manager looking at his last throw of the dice to save his season and his job.

If by Xmas the title looks like it's staying with the Champions, me thinks Minty will be looking to raise around £10m in sales which will most likely be comprised of Thomson and two or three others.
10

Daillyman,

11/10/2008 18:37:46
9 Helter

I would say that the loss to Macedonia was our poorest performance. The day of a Scotland match and Scotland thread and its slag RFC time again.

If the centre forward had put the ball in the net from 3 yards you would be hailing a great Scotland victory!

If the same lad and Fletcher get a touch to Broadfoot cross in the closing minutes its a different story.

This group is far from over and 2nd spot is not beyond the team.
11

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 18:46:43
I am not going to start picking this performance apart because there really is no point.

Bemused you have some fair points but why highlight the RB position and the midfield - it's goals we need.

Brian its not so much about tactics as just sheer lack of talent.

Pike, dear me son. Can you tell me what players you give a chance instead of McManus? What non old firm players are better than the OF players in the team/squad?

The bottom line is this, we are just not good enough. The ability is not there and hasn't been there since the early 80s.

I don't blame Burley or Vogts. I blame the SFA who introduced Andy Roxborough/Craig Brown into the Scottish coaching set up. Both were jokers. Both couldn't kick there own arzes, and both set up this SFA coaching manual and badge system that is a total joke.

For the record, Roy Small started this whole coach a dope system and Roxborough and Brown merely developed it. I sit any wonder the late great Jock Stein booted Roy Small out of Celtic Park when he tried to co-erce some ageing Celtic players into his system.

In the continent the finest teams and players are encouraged to play naturally, in Scotland (and Britain generally) we are told to play systems, zones and be in effect like robots.

Finbal point on this one, Billy Bremner was a lad when he watched the mighty Real Madrid with Puskas and Di Stefano score 7 at Hampden in the 1960 cup final, after which he went home and said to his father "I now see the standard I have to reach" Jinky Johnstone and many others did likewise. They learned from the masters. Currently our youngsters are learning from people like Maurice Malpas. Enough said.










12

MR.CYNICAL,

dundee 11/10/2008 18:47:37
broadfoot, caldwell ,maloney,d.fletcher ,morrison ,naismith , weir are not good enough
13

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 18:49:44
12

So who would you pick instead?
14

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 18:53:49
a red letter day i agree with daillyman #10 and tim #11 narrow margins at this level and so far macadonia have lost 3 home points iceland have lost 3 home points and norway and scotland have lost 2 home points...to listen to the parasitical media you would tyhink we are out..sadly some of the morons on here and especiaslly the phone in fooder just give fat tubes like traynor all the ammunition they need..bbc scotland after match was a skin crawler....can we have some new blood rather than the has beens wannabes and neverbees that infest our media xxx
15

MR.CYNICAL,

dundee 11/10/2008 18:56:33
mcmanus ,hutton ,boyd , ferguson , berra , hartley ,sevrin .
16

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/10/2008 18:59:29
it was always going to be close because lets face it we dont score so many goals.

That miss was unbelievable , he couldnt have done that if he tried. Let him get his confidence back and give him another shot. Hes been scoring enough goals at club level.

Will be hard to get over that, my mum definitely couoldve scored that.
17

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 19:01:16
15

But they are injured or suspended or off form or are hardly playing.

Do you seriously think Scott Severin is better than Maloney or Fletcher? If you do then stop posting because you know nothing about football and will only embarrass yourself further.

18

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 11/10/2008 19:03:11
I would like to congratulate AOL on the succesful cutting of that cable which kept me offline for most of the game and a reconnection which takes longer to load pages than dial-up. Also for the 20 minutes of that wonderful classical music as I was waiting on the phone for a customer service human to tell me tough.

Did manage to see the sopcast replay of the Iwelumo miss and to me the ball bounced off his right ankle as he was running. Whether it was bad timing or unlucky is a moot point. Bit like Bremner v Brazil in 74.

Wish I'd seen the whole game.
19

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 19:37:40
it is still possible for scotland to get to south africa,if we sack the two Bs.buffoon and balloon, i hope to wake up tomorrow and read in the papers that this pair have been sacked, but that will not happen as long as smith is their boss.scotland are in a worse state than they were under bertie or any other manager and by that i mean we are in siht state. get this pair of useless yes men out now.
20

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 19:39:08
#19 are you fat parasite traynor in disguise ????
21

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 19:56:19
The management must take full responsibility for such a poor formation. Even with injuries to key players (Bazza/Kenny/McManus) I still think Scotland had enough in the locker to dispose of a lacklustre Norway team. A more positive 4-4-2 with Fletcher up front with Boyd and Jamsie McFadden wide left, Maloney wide right, Brown and Fletcher in the middle would have given the Norwegians more food for thought. However we had to suffer that dross....a poor 4-5-1.

Anyway sadly we are going to have to put up with Burley and Terry until we are mathematically out. Such a shame as we had the building blocks from the last campaign to really push on and get second spot.

Last point before I go watch NI v Slovenia....why does Barry Robson always look like he's greetin??
22

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 19:57:34
I can't take seriously the idea that we're in a worse state than under Bertie, as suggested at #19.

Rewind four years to the beginning of our last World Cup qualifying campaign under Mr Vogts, and we managed two points from our opening three fixtures, two of which were at home, which by my admittedly fallible arithmetical calculation, is an inferior record to Burley's.

I note the usual complaints about how it's too easy for OF players to walk into the Scotland team, but I've defended this position before. These players perform in Europe, they perform routinely in front of huge crowds, and they're usually under pressure of expectation to win. This makes them more suitable for International football than players from Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee Utd etc, IMO, and the teamwork aspect of having a nucleus of the National side from a couple of clubs is also a consideration. If a smaller club, however, has a player who is genuinely and clearly better than anything in Glasgow, then fair enough, he should be in the team.

But I really don't see many around.
23

maplejambo,

ontario 11/10/2008 20:03:14
OK, every if with Scotland is a big if, but I agree with Sonofcosmos that this is far from over. IF we beat Iceland and Macedonia and win in Oslo, we'd have 13 points. Norway would have to win the three games against Macedonia and Iceland and take two points from the Dutch to reach 13. Based on today, there's a bigger chance of the former than the latter. The point is that this is likely to be very much alive when we come to play Norway again, our likeliest challenger for second. Of course, we'll probably get second place but it will be with the worst record of the second-place teams and we'll still be out! I don't think we were as negative at the beginning as people are saying. We had a bit of width for a while, and Maloney, Morrison, and McFadden all looked lively going forward. But the Norwegians do make it difficult to play. Also, with a pretty shaky defence how adventurous can we afford to be early in what is always going to be a close game? As it was, Carew was left one-on-one a few times. And the substitutions worked in the sense that Iwelmu gave us a target man who helped to create more chances and apply more pressure. I also thought Fletcher did quite well when he came on and almost made a goal at the end there. If the incredible miss had gone in, or Fletcher's cross had got a touch,we'd have had the 1-0 win that everyone would have taken before it started. Can't blame Burley for that.



24

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 20:09:55
23 Fletcher's cross had got a touch

Errr I think you'll find that cross that was whipped into the penalty area near the end was by none other than 'limited' Broadfoot.

Anyway watching a proper strike pairing Lafferty & Healey lead the line for the green and white army. Shame Burley didn't have the balls to play a similiar combo from the start.
25

James,,

11/10/2008 20:10:18
I've still not come to terms with his miss, but I feel a bit sorry for Iwelumo.

I thought he changed the game when he came on, and for the final 30 minutes, Scotland looked way more dangerous with him as the focal point than they did with McFadden, who really isn't a player to lead the line.

It's not over yet, but we have no more margin for error.
26

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 20:15:48
#24 but burley cant play miller and darcheville ...hahaha xxx
27

Jambo-ree,

11/10/2008 20:18:32
#19 He's not a bad manager, just missing the faxes from Vlad telling him who to play ;o)

To be honest if we are going to struggle to get through in second place then I'd rather not qualify for SA at all. Could be an embarrassing experience were we just to scrape through so maybe better to miss out.
28

Jambo-ree,

11/10/2008 20:22:55
1-0 to the Dutch after 15 minutes so don't bank on Iceland for anything.
29

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 20:23:49
Another glorious disaster although when the subsitutions were made it became a better performance all round.
McFadden looked tired, as for Darren Fletcher the most he was in focus was at the kick off carrying out his captains duties as he never continued as a leader on the park for the rest of the match. All talk about getting rid of the the 2 Bs why not start with Gordon Smith.
30

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 20:24:02
26...I'm pleased he can't play Darcheville...well passed his sell by date.

Was alluding to the fact that playing a conventional 2 up front would have given a greater dividend. I would have stuck Iwelumo and Fletcher up front from the start. I think Burley come March will need to have a radical re-think of his tactics if we are to salvage anything.
31

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 20:24:46
#28
"don't bank on Iceland "
No pun intended?
32

Jambo-ree,

11/10/2008 20:25:52
#31 - Come on - give me credit!!
33

Stars in your eyes,

11/10/2008 20:27:37
It was a much better second half, but it was too much too late.

Unconvincing performances against N Ireland, Macedonia, and now Norway indicate that Burley & Butcher are not up to World Cup standards.

I heard Burley say that we must play to our strengths, then I see him play McFadden in a centre-forward role. It is clearly not his best position. He plays off a centre-forward. He would struggle playing that role against a club side. He is not good enough in the air. It is obvious. Why can't Burley see that. It is also obvious to me that Naysmith is not a quality defender. He can attack down the wings but makes too many errors at the back. It is also obvious we need more goal scorers in the team. Scott Brown and Robson should be in more attacking roles and keep Fletcher at the back somewhere where he doesn't have to think too much. Many will say he is our best player but to me he is just a good runner. He tries hard and doesn't let you down, but he doesn't have enough quality to break open a defence. Iwelumo missed a sitter and that was disappointing, but overall I think he made a positive impact.

We are not out yet, but we are hardly in good shape to play in a World Cup tournament.
34

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 20:29:28
Much as though big broadfoot has played well this season, to my mind he remains a 'saint mirren' player that got lucky.
But hat's off to the big man ...he certainly makes the best of what he's got.

IF I was his manager, you would never hear me speak so frankly about him in public. I would never say anything in public to undermine a player's confidence.
I can't get my head round Burley's comments about broadfoot. To single him out from the rest of the team at a press conference for such insulting remark is evidence enough of Burley's unsuitability to act as a leader of men.
35

Armo,

11/10/2008 20:35:47
#11 Timaloy - Spot on there with your post.

Scotland must be about the only nation in the world that manages to coach flare and excitement out of players at a young age.

The Largs Mafia have a lot to answer for.
36

Jambo-ree,

11/10/2008 20:37:02
Disappointing scoreline for Lithuania so far. 2-0 down but Miko has not been booked for diving.
37

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 20:37:29
James

I too feel sorry for Iwelumo on one level...he will lie in bed tonight , and no matter how hard he tries to avoid it, the moment will constantly be regurgitated in his mind.
They call it 'self-torture', but actually I don't think any of us have a choice when something like that happens. The 'mind' can just throw things at 'you' ...there is an involuntariness about the whole process which fades over time.

So, I do sympathise with the bloke...at the same time, whilst the phrase 'it was more difficult to miss' is over-used these days, in this case, it couldn't be closer to the truth.
38

Jambo-ree,

11/10/2008 20:40:52
Which is the most embarrassing result so far today?

Faroes 1-1 Austria
Georgia 1-1 Cyprus
Luxembourg 1-1 Israel
Romania 2-1 France (HT)
Scotland 0-0 Norway
39

James,,

11/10/2008 20:42:03
Helter #37,

It really was a "van Vossen" moment, and I couldn't BELIEVE he missed it. He'll probably never be allowed to forget it.

The main reason I feel sorry for him though is that other than that, I thought he played really well when he came on. Scotland looked far more likely to score with him leading the line than they did beforehand.

Hopefully he will get another chance (to play that is).
40

maplejambo,

ontario 11/10/2008 20:44:12
Correction appreciated, Rouleur. I wasn't trying to slight Broadfoot. It seems I just go out of my way, and the facts, to say nice things about Hibbies. Must be living in Canada that does it. I still think, though, that if Burley had started with a more attacking formation, and Norway had got an early goal and gone on to win, there would be just as many asking how he could be so reckless in a must-not lose game in which a 1-0 win would've been a great result.
41

maplejambo,

ontario 11/10/2008 20:45:57
Correction appreciated, Rouleur. I wasn't trying to slight Broadfoot. It seems I just go out of my way, and the facts, to say nice things about Hibbies. Must be living in Canada that does it. I still think, though, that if Burley had started with a more attacking formation, and Norway had got an early goal and gone on to win, there would be just as many asking how he could be so reckless in a must-not lose game in which a 1-0 win would've been a great result.
42

Media 1,

cape town 11/10/2008 20:46:01
Chris Iwelumo ! What is this world coming to?
43

!,

UK 11/10/2008 20:47:54
Looks like scotland are back to the old days already ha ahahahahaha ah ha ah. You might as well pull out of qualifying to save embarrasment if thats possible
44

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 20:48:28
#42

And your point is?
45

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 20:49:07
#43

and you support?
46

The Chancer,

11/10/2008 20:53:10
With the calibre of player available to him, I don't think George Burley can be criticised for not qualifying from this group.

But for a quite amazing miss, we would have got the win our second half performance deserved.

When a thirty-yarder screams into the top corner, you'll often hear it said that 99 times out of 100 it would have ended up in row ZZ.

99 times out of 100, Iwelumo would have scored that chance. Even then though, maybe an international striker should put it away 100 times out of 100.
47

Bosco Bhoy,

Donegal 11/10/2008 20:54:19
I do agree with the earlier points made re:

Why did Burley play such a defensive formation at home to Norway?

No matter WHO the manager is maybe the real issue is that the talent just isnt there in sufficient depth.

Nowadays I feel that nations such as Scotland and Ireland need 5 or 6 quality players coming throught at the same time or they must have a fair slice of luck and/or punch above their weight over a consistent number of qualifers to get to either the Euros or a World Cup.

We no longer produce the quality of players that can get results over the tier 2 teams in the groups so what chances do we expect to have?
48

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 20:57:01
potentially after 3 games in our group ( 2 away from home)on wednesday night we couldbe sitting in 2nd place...the end of the world...eh no xxx
49

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 20:59:22
#47
"Why did Burley play such a defensive formation"

its the new scottish trend started off by WS in Europe followed by GS.
50

MR.CYNICAL,

dundee 11/10/2008 21:02:49
#17--many a player has been picked for scotland when hardly playing for their club-- injured players usually get fit,-- sevrin could play in front of a back four.-- maybe you should stop posting if you feel that only you have a view .
51

Bosco Bhoy,

11/10/2008 21:05:18
And BTW McFadden IMHO is a highly overrated player,who im not surprised cant hold down a position n a Chmpaionship team.

Far too many trying to convince themselves he is the real deal on the basis of a few flucky screamers ( if you can be both at the same time).
52

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 21:07:45
#50..funny burley is taking more stick for not playing boyd in one game than smith has taken all season for his treatment of boyd...but hey walters got the parasites onside so thats ok
as ive said the has beens the wannabes and the neverbes on bbc radio scotland were skin crawlling...
53

Bosco Bhoy,

11/10/2008 21:08:36
49 Mick

Usually but not always CFC and RFC play teams in Europe who are of a seriously higher quality so playing 4-5-1 often can be defended.

Is that how you feel Scotland compares to Norway at home?
54

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 21:13:49
49...the difference WS won his games when managing Scotland playing 4-5-1...Burley couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag.

4-5-1 should be employed when playing the Dutch however against the other teams we should employ a conventional 4-4-2. However like I said unless Mr Burley has a RADICAL change in tacticsw I think we are out.

Hopefully I will be eating my words come september next year.
55

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 21:14:16
burley and butcher are a couple of planks, get rid of them noe.
56

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 21:14:54
Norway is a decent side however lumping balls forward into their defence for our diminutive strikers was a joke their average height must have been 6'5+
57

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 21:14:59
sorry, now
58

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 21:17:10
or sooner.
59

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 21:17:17
or sooner.
60

rorie,

alloa 11/10/2008 21:17:44
or sooner
61

Who's it gonna be? ,

11/10/2008 21:17:54
Done, finished, bang. Another 2 years at least. Oh well.
62

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 21:19:30
Well I think that's quite enough about Scotland now...international football has its place but it's club football that draws stronger passions.

Strachan said recently that this is his strongest squad yet as Celtic manager and I wholeheartedly agree with him. The quality that we now have on the bench is the best we've had since the Lisbon Lions.
O'Neil's squads lacked depth, and he was, before Strachan, the most successful Celtic manager since the Big Man.

So I am very impressed by the squad that Strachan has developed ...his genius in taking Celtic to where we are now on a shoestring whilst recording record financial profits is started to emerge as a blinding shaft of light.
63

Rouleur,

11/10/2008 21:20:40
41...4-4-2 at home is hardly adventurous....if we were saying 4-2-4 then I agree. However the onus today was on Scotland to attack, unfortunately until Iwelumo and Fletcher joined the fray we were toothless.
64

Tor,

Lillehammer, Norway 11/10/2008 21:21:14
What a stadium, what an atmosphere! At Hamden park you find the words best suporters - Steffen Iversen (Tottenham/Rosenborg) and Åge Hareide(coach) both said before the match. I think they were both right!

Thank you!
65

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 21:22:42
62....yup and masterminding a 4-2 pumping at home was a masterstroke.

66

MickyFinn,

Livingston 11/10/2008 21:23:00
#62

as Zebedee said Time for Bed!!!!
67

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 21:24:20
64...thanks Tor

Just wait until the tartan army descends on Oslo and attempts to drink the town dry and pump yer burds....cannae wait...!
68

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 21:24:42
And BTW

It should not be forgotten that O'Neil DID leave Celtic in a mess ....debt was high, the squad was far too old, root and branch changes were needed.

Strachan was given relatively very little money to get the whole mess sorted out , and actually, when you think about it, very, very few managers could have come to Celtic at that time and brought the success that he has ....truth be told, I'm not sure that ANY manager in the world would HONESTLY state that he MIGHT have achieved more than Strachan.
69

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 21:27:23
It looks like a clear victory for the Dutch tonight, as expected, but no other team can be overly happy with how it's gone so far in Group Nine.

Norway have two points from two games and were held to a draw by Iceland. Macedonia have already suffered a home defeat. Iceland are minutes away from their second successive loss. There will be more pain for a couple of these teams in midweek when Norway entertain Holland, and Macedonia travel to Iceland.

Scotland are definitely in the mix for the runners-up spot, so the doom and gloom from a few on here is misplaced, IMO.
70

Talk o' the Toun,

11/10/2008 21:29:57
Critisism/writing off Scotlands chances(of getting 2nd place OTT). IMO 2nd half performance desrved a victory...a manager cannot legislate for a miss from 2ft!

However manager must realise McFaddy is not and never will be a lone striker.
71

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 21:30:27
Helter...yup Wee Gordon has managed to accumulate a total of ZERO points away from home in the Champions League. The man is a living legend..!
72

Helter Skelter,

11/10/2008 21:36:50
71

The fact that he has got us into the Champions League 3 seasons in a row is as far as you need to go in that department, but if you want icing on top, he has a 100% record in reaching the last 16 ...and BTW , that icing is worth its weight in plutonium.
73

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 21:39:57
71 Rouleur

Your posts on Strachan are merely showing how insular you are. You pull out one or two poor results and hold it against the man.

But face the facts and look at the big picture.

Gordon Strachan:

1. The first Celtic manager in over 30 years to win 3 titles running.

2. For two consecutive seasons he takes Celtic into the knockout stages (after Christmas) of the Champions league - again not done since 1980 by a Celtic manager.

3. 5 trophies in 3 seasons.

4. Halving the wage bill.

5. Making a team that play football in an entertaining way - The Celtic way.

Yes he's made a few bloomers (haven't we all) but look at his overall record at Celtic, it's actually pretty good of not excellent.

Open your eyes Rouleur and let the bias bile settle down and give credit where it's due.



74

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 21:50:11
Tim.

I'll give you every one of those points. Celtic are a good team, but there were a few who wanted rid of Strachan in his early days.

Another good reason, IMO, why we should definitely reserve judgement on Burley's Scotland.

(And it is a Scotland thread, after all.)
75

Keyboard supporter,

11/10/2008 21:54:18
Quite depressing performance and result today. Don't wish to castigate Burley unfairly but McFadden as a lone striker??? - his main weaknesses are workrate & pace which coincidentally is the player he replaced (miller) perceived strengths. Weir is too slow at international level and somebody wants to tell Caldwell to stop beleiving he's Beckenbauer reincarnate. Brown was busy, Robson too but Fletcher can't dictate play like Ferguson is able to. Though he plays for the dark side i've always liked maloney and he looked most likely today as opposed to Morrison who looked out of his depth. Iwelumos' miss was outrageous and thought that he looked like a big coo anyway. Posters advocating Boyds inclusion have a point as whatever weak points he has (and theres lots to be fair) he can stick the ball in the net - he'd probably have shinned that in the net.

To be fair I again feared the worst after Ronnie Browns' genuinely terrifying performance slaughtering the anthem. Looked like your dad at Xmas and all that was missing was a half empty bottle of Bells and sweaty vest hanging over his trousers.
Someone has to tell this tartan clad buffoon that enough is enough - personally i'd recommend a AK47 equipped firing squad - at least it would have been some entertainment.

:-(
76

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 21:57:50
Holland away - nil points

Iceland home - three points

Norway away - one point

Holland home - one point

Macedonia home - three points

Total - 12 points.

Enough to finish second in group?

Maybe.
77

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 21:58:54
73...I like the wee man personally and admit he has done a good job. However the bench mark is Europe and frankly not garnering a single away win is pretty poor. Christ we got knocked out by Lithuanian goat herders but still managed to beat the French league Champions in Lyon...thats 300% more points than WGS has ever accumulated.

So again well done WGS on three in a row however lets see how you and your fellow 'tics react when the wheels fall off.

Also as stated this is a Scotland thread.
78

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:00:38
Bemused

It's not so much about Celtic being good or bad but merely about looking at the job one Gordon Strachan has done. And all things considered he's done a damn fine job.

Yes I am aware it's a Scotland thread and whatever has happened these last few games it's not Burley's fault. He should be given time but see my post 11 as to why Scotland are failing internationally for over a decade now.

79

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:03:53
77 Rouleur so you beat Lyon but in the grand scheme of things you failed as youy never qualified.

If Strachan never wins an away game in Europe (and it's not that easy btw) but qualifies for the last 16 then I will be delighted.

Same story if he loses every old firm game but wins the title and/or treble then I will be delighted.

See the big picture Rouleur and face the facts.

Incidentally when do you see the wheels falling off. If they do then the wee man will have had some ride.
80

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 22:04:40
PS If its a 'show us yer medals' forum then Mr Smith is winning that one comfortably.
81

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:05:04
Rouleur don't you think the wheels are more likely to fall off Watty's wagon?
82

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:07:16
How many medals did Watty win as a player?

How many medals did Watty win on a level playing field?

It's no too hard to win medals when you can spend £100m while the rest can't spend £1m.

Smith had 100 times the spending money than the rest in his first term and you could therefore say - he bought those medals and didn't really win them.
83

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 22:09:06
i am interested by the medias almost universal ignoring of the most interesting part of rangers agm...the fact that jjb arent paying rangers...thjis must have some impact as murrays reason for cutting the deal was to provide a "guarenteed " income for the bank.
84

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 11/10/2008 22:11:08
#82..there may be reasons but im afraid rangers did win those titles..interstingly though strachan has a better percentage record than smith...so ill live with that xxx
85

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 22:12:03
79...big picture...you need to get yourself a nice Philips LCD and throw out that 14" black and white. I can only imagine you are advocating WGS for Scotland...

Getting to last 16 is indeed a great achievement especially as it was a Rangers manager who set the bench mark there so I accept your bankhanded comment to a one Mr McLeish who with a tiny transfer budget managed to secure SEVEN trophies. So WGS has some way to go to match his or the great Walt's success.

Anyway 51 titles and counting...bigger picture indeed..!

86

BEMUSED EXILE,

11/10/2008 22:12:49
Tim

Sorry to deflect from the OF again, but I don't actually think that Scotland's performances in the last few qualifying campaigns have been too terrible.

We've watched our team lose twice in play offs, against England and Holland, (but produce one excellent performance each time to record a memorable 1-0 victory), and most recently, we saw them finish a close third in a section which included the two finalists from the last World Cup.

Unfortunately, there are no prizes for these near-misses, but we have been knocking on the door. Maybe this time it just might open for us.
87

SkeptikScot,

11/10/2008 22:13:13
Not happy, we're running out of chances. Still in our hands though ... just.
88

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:14:11
83

I guess Murray willforce Watty's hand to offload some players in the Jan window if JJB don't come up with the readies.

Now then who will be sold? Or let's re-phrase who CAN be sold?

They might get a bob or two for McGregor and maybe Novo or maybe they will sell Boyd and Darseville or the media might hype up Broadfoot enough and get £9m off Spurs! Who knows.

So LRFC might get around £16m for the lot. Not bad if they can do it. Somehow though I don't see them taking in £2m in Jan.

Murray's financial mess just gets bigger and bigger.

89

Big Stevie,

Sydneyside 11/10/2008 22:17:08
I fear for George Burley after this result. I got the feeling after the Macedonia game that certain elements of the press were very quick to peddle stories about team morale under Burley and I suspect we will see more of this over the next few days. Once the pree turn on a National manager there's no way back.

Having said all that a realistic appraisal of the state of the group would surely show that we are still very much in with a shout of second place and lets be honest thats what we have been aiming for all along.
90

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 22:21:46
82...since when were we discussing the merits of their playing careers? As we all know playing ability doesn't neccesarily translate into managerial ability...how many caps did Stein get??

We could only play the teams put in front of us, if that happens to be that one of those teams was 90 mins from being shut then well thats a shame but not my problem.

Anyway I seem to remember McLeish won SEVEN trophies and he spent beggar all in comparison to MON so does that make Big Eck a better manager than Wattie, WGS and MON as he has the most trophies,medals and caps????

The bigger picture is Rangers have won 51 titles.
91

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 11/10/2008 22:23:52
Dear dear dear. Scotland failures again. 1998 a distant memory - the last time Scotland qualified. Incidentally, in the France '98 Scotland only gained 1 point in the group of 4, and lost to Morroco 3-0. So even when Scotland do manange to actually qualify they end up total failures anyway.
If only Scotland could go as far as England and win the world cup, or at least get to the quarter finals or semis like they have done before. It must really hurt the so called "tartan army" knowing that their neighbours are doing so much better than them. I hope they don't feel too sad, and suffer from small country syndrome too much.
92

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 22:25:08
82...or how about Bill Struth winning 30 trophies, including 18 league titles??

How's that for a bigger picture?
93

Timothy Malloy fan of the champions,

11/10/2008 22:25:55
86

Bemused you are really grasping at straws.

England came to Hampden and outclassed us and in effect it was tie won. Yes we scored at Wenbley and won but the tie was over before we set foot on the grass.

The Holland play off was also a case of being totally outclassed. What was the aggregate score again?

Face the facts BE, we are second rate. We have no top players like we used to. However we are triers and capable of scoring a goal and defending it with our lives and occassionally scraping a victory. But we are well short of being decent again at the top level.

All you need to do is look at our players, how many play at the highest level and how many are with top clubs?

Years ago we had the likes of Jordan (AC Milan, Man U)
Dalglish, Hansen, Souness (Liverpool and European Champions), Archibald (Barcelona and Spurs) Robertson, Gemmill, Burns and Gray (Notts Forest European Champions)...the list goes on.

Today we have,

Gordon (playing with a team in the lower reaches of the premiership)
Naysmith (championship or English 2nd division)
Weir and Bigfoot(spl)
Caldo (spl)
Broon (spl)
Robson (spl)
Fletcher (Man U and Premiership)
Faddy (championship)
Maloney (spl)
Morrison (lower reaches of the premiership)
Iwelumo (english 2nd division)

Out of the lot of them only ONE player is actually playing at the very highest level and even then he's lucky to get a game.





94

Rouleur,

On ma bike 11/10/2008 22:28:11
91...on the contrary as there is not the same burden of expectancy on a country of 5 million compared to England's 49 million we have a good time win lose or draw.

As for '66 and all that..well we all know it wasn't a goal.