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Rangers on red alert for UEFA Cup trip to Livorno

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Published Date: 04 October 2006
IN A season when Rangers are more conscious of the need for acceptable conduct from their supporters in Europe than ever before, yesterday's UEFA Cup group stage draw in Nyon threw up just as many concerns off the pitch as on it.
From a purely footballing perspective, their Group A campaign against Auxerre, Livorno, Maccabi Haifa and Partizan Belgrade would be deemed highly acceptable by manager Paul Le Guen in his quest to secure the top-three finish required for further pro
gress to the last 32 of the tournament next year.

It is doubtful, however, if the Ibrox club's security chief Laurence Macintyre was quite as thrilled by the subsequent computer fixture scheduling at UEFA's Nyon headquarters which deemed that Rangers will travel to Livorno for their opening tie on 19 October.

The Serie A club, who are competing in European competition for the first time, are followed by one of the most notorious supports in Italian football. Livorno, situated in Tuscany, is known as the capital of Italian anarchy and was the birthplace of the country's Communist Party in 1921.

Perhaps the only thing Livorno's supporters, known as Ultras, have in common with those of Rangers is a dislike of former Celtic striker Paolo Di Canio. Livorno's fans have their most violent rivalries with supporters of Italy's traditionally right-wing clubs Lazio, Inter Milan and Verona. In December last year, Di Canio gave a fascist salute while playing for Lazio against Livorno and was subsequently fined and banned after repeating the action during a game against Juventus. Clearly, security will be a major issue for the game at the 18,200 Armando Picchi Stadium later this month when the UEFA delegate on duty may have more to think about that any potential discriminatory chanting from what is likely to be a sizeable Rangers support.

While Livorno were the bottom-ranked club in the fourth of the five seeded pots for yesterday's draw, they are likely to present Rangers with a stern examination on matchday one. Promoted in 2004, after 55 years outside the top flight of Italian football, they secured an unexpected ninth place finish in Serie A last season.

Following the Italian match-fixing scandal which saw champions Juventus relegated, Livorno were promoted to a UEFA Cup place. This season, they have lost only once under new coach Daniele Arrigoni and are just four points behind Serie A leaders Roma after eight matches.

Their place in the group stage was secured with an aggregate win over the Austrian side SV Pasching in the first round. Livorno won 2-0 at home in the first leg and 1-0 away in the return. They have vast experience throughout their squad, including the former Bayern Munich defender Samuel Kuffour, ex- Everton forward Ibrahima Bakayoko and Italian international striker Cristiano Lucarelli who was the leading scorer in Serie A last season.

Lucarelli, a committed Communist who idolises Cuban revolutionary Che Guevara, turned down several big money transfers during the season in order to remain with his home town club. "Italian sides are always difficult, so we know the first match will be tough," said Rangers assistant manager Yves Colleu yesterday. "Livorno have a match against Ascoli on 15 October, so we have a chance to see them before we play them."

Le Guen and Colleu will have to do less homework on Auxerre, the top seeded club in their group. Rangers will travel to France for their second away game on 23 November. It was Auxerre who eliminated them from the group stage of the UEFA Cup two years ago with a 2-0 win at Ibrox and Le Guen will hope for better fortune in his homeland. "It is a very interesting draw and we are obviously very happy to be going back to France," added Colleu.

"Paul and I know Auxerre very well, of course. They are a good side and we know that we will have a difficult game with them.

"I know the coach Jean Fernandez and spoke with him last year when he was with Marseille. It will be a key game in the group but I feel we have a good chance of qualifying."

Rangers' two home games will be against Israeli champions Maccabi Haifa on 2 November and Serbian side Partizan Belgrade on 15 December. Maccabi, who lost narrowly to Liverpool in the third qualifying round of the Champions League, overcame the Bulgarian side Litex Lovech in the first round of the UEFA Cup despite having to play their home leg in Holland. Their 3-1 win in Lovech was an indication that they can travel well.

Partizan, runners-up to eternal rivals Red Star Belgrade in the Serbian League last season, are struggling domestically so far in the current campaign but did record a highly creditable 4-3 aggregate win over Dutch club Groningen in the first round of the UEFA Cup.

Rangers must certainly look to take maximum points at home to two of the clubs ranked below them in the group if they are to become the first Scottish club to advance beyond this stage of the UEFA Cup.

"It's fair to say we don't know much about Maccabi or Partizan, but we have time to discover everything about them," said Colleu. "Having said that, I watched Maccabi playing against Liverpool in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League and they were very impressive.

"They were unlucky to be knocked out, so that shows me what kind of team we are facing. I think it's good that our last game is at home against Partizan Belgrade because it could be a decisive game for us and it's better that it is at Ibrox."



The full article contains 977 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 October 2006 9:20 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Rangers FC , Europa League
 
1

John M.,

04/10/2006 01:32:48

Why this constant fixation with fan behaviour every time Rangers play in Europe? Isn't this article a wee bit back to front? Shouldn't the actual football angle be dealt with first? Worth noting that when Rangers visited Parma a years back there was no problem and the support were widely praised by the Italian media.

2

kguffg,

a 04/10/2006 03:14:34

How very naive John. Don't you realise that these Rangers fans might shout rude words and thus endanger world peace? And then of course our pals in the media would feel obliged to take it up on themselves to kick up a hell of a stink and even complain to UEFA.

Never mind the violence that takes place regularly at Italian stadia, or even North Korea's bomb. No, it's rude words that we must focus on. After all, at the football we should really all sit quietly on our hands and never utter a cheep.

3

Bishop Boyne,

04/10/2006 03:29:06

At least we now have a footballing authority who was not scared to stand up to the Infirm!

I am sure the well behaved non sectarian ranting rangers supporters will have no problems, it is a pity that they are few and far between; mind you UEFA will be there to witness the events, so we will not have to rely on the rfc security chiefs blue tinted view of events, I wonder if the famous Livorno Ultras know the words to the billy boys yet!

4

Archie,

04/10/2006 05:52:14

Perhaps because the last time rangers played in Italy, against Inter, sectarian singing could clearly be heard on TV coming from the small official rangers party.

Still, not to worry, David Murray is looking into that.

5

Haamish,

04/10/2006 06:31:38

Archie I wonder who will be looking into the Sectarian singing which "could clearly be heard on the TV coming from" the Celtic Support on Sunday?
Oh I forgot that was the "Away Support", who obviously don't attend Home matches as the Celtic "Home" support are just wonderful lads and Lassies.

6

John M.,

04/10/2006 06:39:59

Yes there really is nothing like singing the praises of a terrorist organisation that murdered two thousand people in cold blood to create a fun and amiable family environment at a football park is there. But even just mentioning that seems to be a taboo subject for most of Scotland's chatterati so they only ever put the boot into one side.

7

Sean G,

Roma 04/10/2006 06:56:17

More blatant anti-Rangers reporting from the Hootsman-what a joke our Scottish press have become-whatever happened to balanced and factual reporting??

Fresh from the nonsense about sectarian singing that only seems to get reported from one side of the religious divide-now this hack is trying to invent imaginary problems and suggests Rangers' fans may have problems with Italian communists thereby regurgitating another old myth that Rangers fans are somehow right-wing fascists-yeah and we are all in the Hitler Youth as well !

Absolute balderdash and you know it and I would be be very careful whom you accuse if you want to start going down that particular route!

8

wayne bijlyeerheid,

04/10/2006 06:59:45

poor Archie #4 what a shame it was only you and your mates, no doubt following with interest a Scottish team in Europe, who heard this singing, otherwise something might be done about it.
Shame about your deafness at Parkhead though, you're not much of a witness there, eh?

9

Thommo,

04/10/2006 07:01:55

The Rangers official party in Milan was infiltrated by fan (as reported in the Evening Times).

It should not be forgotten that Rangers have played many, many games in Europe with no trouble including quite a few in trouble "hot spots" such as Greece and Turkey.

10

John M.,

04/10/2006 07:07:04

He's probably completely unaware that the supporters group of another strongly left leaning Tuscany team called Empoli combine the name Rangers with the image of Che Guevarra:-

http://www.rangers.it/

11

Billy Fulton,

Belfast 04/10/2006 07:13:05

It's clear there is a papal conspiracy against the mighty Rangers involving the media,church and dark forces in Scottish football...seems it's ok to sing about Thomson machine guns and bayonets glinting in the sun ...there appears to be one rule for some and another set of rules for another...

12

Hibernimyth 4-0,

Pilton 04/10/2006 07:29:49

Maybe RFC should get the Italian press to publish a few articles outlining the difference between a facist salute and a holding up a "red hand" - which seems be a favourite gesture of the Ranger's away support. Both are of course, offensive and have no place in football - but it sounds like the Italians will not see it this way.

13

Ricco,

04/10/2006 07:31:46

The bewilderment of Rangers fans on this issue is entirely understandable.

For decades it was perfectly acceptable to chant about being up.knees.fenian.blood - the Sunday Herald categorised it as a Scottish folk song, for goodness sake. As it was probably the 'song' chanted most frequently in public by the greatest number of Scottish people, it could have laid claim to be the Scottish national anthem. The police had no interest in it. The fascist roots of the 'Billy' were quietly ignored. See the Strathclyde Univ. article below.

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve23.htm

Why all the fuss now, when Scotland was entirely happy with this state of affairs?

14

John M.,

04/10/2006 07:53:04

People were getting lifted on breach of the peace for singing stuff like that long before Donald Gorrie ever drafted his unnecessary piece of legislation, Richard. Party songs have never been looked on favourably by the authorities or tolerated to the extent you are making out. If you think people even knew the words to the Billy Boys let alone sang it in places like Kelso, Stonehaven, Dufftown and Kirkwall you know nothing about Scotland.

15

Iain fae Elgin,

London 04/10/2006 08:03:18

Well,

I know where NOT to come for intelligent, football led debate.

Religion....wind 'em up and watch 'em go.....pathetic..

How about talking about the UEFA cup guys....??

16

Ricco,

04/10/2006 08:17:02

Iain
Have you read the article? - the comments are pertinent.

John
What percentage of the Scottish people live in places like the ones you mention? What percentage live in the central belt up to Dundee, and which portion has the greatest influence on Scottish society? People who were previously arrested for chanting the Billy Boys were arrested for breach of the Peace - as you correctly say. There was no judgement on the content of that breach of the peace.

17

bonus,

04/10/2006 08:25:37

iain @ 15 - couldn't agree more.

oh hang on wait, the focus of your criticism is the commentary and not stephen halliday's original article?

"How about talking about the UEFA cup guys" should be directed solely at the Hootsman for its gutter press reporting.

it would be absolutely fair game if the fans do go and disgrace themselves and UEFA fine them again, etc, but the constant salvating by our MHEDIA is just ridiculous.

but then that's what you get when you are the establishment club i suppose.

i guess with column inches to fill and no hearts/romanov in Europe to talk about (what happened to last 16 of the champions league jambos?), Halliday's gray matter could only extend to the obvious instead of something more intelligent, like whether PLG will deploy different tactics or personnel in Europe, given his two team approach with Lyon vis-a-vis domestic & european football.....

18

Why rise to the bait?,

France 04/10/2006 08:27:48

Uefa's original judgement on the Rangers issue would confirm Richard's point: they said that this behaviour had been tolerated in Scotland for many years, and so they (originally) didn't feel in a position to do anything about it themselves.

19

KWS,

Perth 04/10/2006 08:34:07

This debate shows that the sooner both Rangers, Celtic and hopefully their fans uproot to the Premiership the better for Scottish football. I honestly cannot believe some of the comments.

K, #2...rude words...get a grip. You cannot be naive enough to think that's what the article is about.

William, #8...the TV mics picked it up.

Duncan, #9. Oh, well, it was only Rangers FANS singing the songs. That must make it okay then.

Don't even get me started on the folk song debate.

20

John M.,

04/10/2006 08:34:14

Richard #16 judges had plenty of discretion pre-Gorrie legislation and didn't treat all breach of the peace cases equally in sentencing terms. The sectarian aggravation stuff really didn't change very much and was just a way for a few politicians to generate lots of headlines and divert attention away from other core issues like health and education.

As for the rest of your response if you are going to claim something is enough of a Scottish folk song to be verging on a national anthem then it should be something that was genuinely national in scope. Think you were getting a bit carried away to be honest. Even in the central belt most people from a Protestant background did not like or sing that song. It is revisionism to suggest otherwise.

21

Andy,

Glasgow 04/10/2006 08:40:12

I agree the article was upside down, it was meant to be a sports item, cover the football first !

As for 'Party' songs....I happen to think we have a few more pressing problems than addressing the issue of people singing sectarian words, maybe we should address the runaway 'ned' problem first, which causes thousands of people problems on a daily basis rather than some singing in an enclosed environment at the weekend.

If we can spend £400million + on a talking shop lets have them do something really worthwhile whilst there in there !

As for Rangers in Europe, 'mon the Bears !

22

John M.,

04/10/2006 08:40:46

John #18 the reason UEFA changed their mind on appeal was partly because they were informed that was not in fact the case by people like the ex-primus of the Scottish Episcopal Church Richard Holloway. Over and out from me for now.

23

Ricco,

04/10/2006 08:47:33

John
I was making a bit of a joke suggesting it could be the national anthem. The image of the MSPs standing in the Scottish parliament to sing 'HELLO, HELLO...' tickled me. Just imagine Tommy Sheridan's face.

24

Caragh Paul,

04/10/2006 08:48:01

Perhaps the discussion should have been led by a football one. However, rangers are under caution from UEFA for fan bahaviour and so the article is relevant.
The many rangers fans who contributed to this debate seem happy to ignore that there is a problem or try say that the Celtic fans are just as bad with their songs. The reality is that Celtic are not under threat from UEFA to have sanctions imposed. Sort yourselves out lads or the only trip to Europe you will be making is to Benidorm for the Fair fortnight

25

&Larrsonfixestheradio,

04/10/2006 09:23:31

Paul,

even in Benidorm there was trouble and arrests last year

26

,

04/10/2006 09:24:59
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27

Elidor,

Stirling 04/10/2006 09:42:55

Is there a support in the world as paranoid as that which follows Rangers. Come on lads. Look at the facts;
Your club refused to sign Catholics for most of a century, because, they said, they couldn't find any good enough.
The fans sing songs about being up to their knees in fenian blood, attack team buses, have actually been banned from Europe in the past, and still struggle to find English clubs and police forces prepared to let them play friendlies down south.

But, of course, it's the Catholic driven Scottish media/judiciary/police at the centre of a conspiracy targetting Rangers FC and the fans. From what I've read, that's when they're not signing on to claim benefits from their friends who run the DWP. I blame Kafflick schools.

Isn't it amazing how so few Catholics can share an agenda and positions of power at the same time? Must all be masons then, eh no, eh, that's not right. It's they Templar Knights of St Columbo, or that Rotary Club...Dan Brown would be mad to overlook this for his next book.

Here's a tip - Grow up a bit, change your outlook and you might find that the problems with other people's perceptions of you disappear.

After all, you are the people, so you keep telling us.

28

Stewart01,

Glasgow 04/10/2006 09:56:23

"Isn't it amazing how so few Catholics can share an agenda and positions of power at the same time?"
Gary, is this your paranoia creeping in or just double standards?
However, back to the football. I worry about Rangers chances playing with so little confidence in a group where the "minnows" gave Liverpool plenty to think about. PLG needs the patience of the fans as he progresses his philosophy on the side. It will take longer than Rangers are in the Uefa cup competition to impress his ideas on the side.

29

honest its the truth,

Livingston 04/10/2006 10:27:44

I see the paranoid evil do'ers from Castle Greyskull are out in force today.
Got to say it must be galling when even the daily Ranger is banging on about how poor you lot are.
The Daily Ranger is no longer the biggest selling paper in Scotland thanks to its blue tint the best support in the World have deserted it The award winning fans of the Hoops have downed that rag for all time.You see if you portray love and peace as we do then you get that back. learn your lesson oh daft ones from the dark side if you spout bile you get bile back.
May god bless you and bring you back from the dark side soon. Tick to have a clean sweep this year

30

SingaporeSlingYerhook,

Rio d J. 04/10/2006 11:03:34

article in the Herald today about Rangers "new initiative" ... i.e. they have deigned to offfer advice to other scottish clubs on how to deal with secatarian behaviour at their grounds .... how hilarious!? On the other hand, I think they're getting decent value for their PR bucks, with this a prime example of "deflect the spotlight from us, make it look like everybody else are just as bad .."

31

Thommo,

04/10/2006 11:05:21

Every club is under scrutiny from UEFA. Fans of Celtic etc who think they are immune from punishment could be in for a rude awakening.

As for Catholic players, Rangers played their first Catholic (Pat Lafferty) before Celtic even existed. There continued to be Catholic players - like “Doc” Kivlichan, Colin Mainds, Tom Murray, Archie Kyle, Joe Donnachie, Hugh O'Neill and John Spencer - at the club over the years (pre-Mo Johnston).

32

The Scarborian,

Scarborough 04/10/2006 11:06:14

honest its the truth.

I see the drugs have kicked in now.

33

Sean G,

Waiting! 04/10/2006 11:07:54

Bonjour bonjour mon amies.

#29 Its the truth (sic). For your information- Castle Greyskull was where the good guys lived -The Masters Of The Universe-aka The Glorious Teddy Bears.

Away back to Snake Mountain you dim tim!

I blame the schools myself I really do!

34

Johhny Jambo,

In Between 04/10/2006 11:18:05

Even in a debate like this both Celtic and Rangers fans demean themselves. Both portray themselves as being persecuted by the media and the other side sing worse songs than they do. How childish. Guys your fans are as bigoted as each other. Your very survival as footballing entities depends on this hatred. It is total poppycock to spout this historical drivel trying to justify these hateful songs. Bigotory is bigotory irrespective of how long it has been going on.

35

dgseville,

04/10/2006 12:29:21

I honestly wish sectarian Rangers and Celtic fans would ***k back to Ireland if they love its culture and history so much. The problem is would the Irish have them? It's time the Scottish exec tries to tackle the poverty and ignorance that has led us to this point, and to seriously punish those who promote sectarianism. The Orange Lodge and its Catholic offspring should have been banned a long time ago.

Anybody that says Rangers have not had a non-catholic playing policy in the past are liars, anybody who tries to justify Celtic fans singing pro Republican songs are showing unfair bias.

As for the football I think this will be a tough group for Rangers, no easy ties.

36

Pedantic,

Edinburgh 04/10/2006 12:46:38

Post 29. As a non-OF fan it's amusing but unsurprizingly pathetic reading these posts.

One thing though, "honest the truth" refers to "Castle Greyskull" which I presume is meant to be Ibrox? That being so, and having watched the programme with said Castle in it many times with my young kids, Castle Greyskull is where the good guy's reside!

Seems to me that if you're going to slag off the opposition then you should use a name associated with the bad guy's, and not one that is associated with hero's and universe saving beings with super-powers!

I guess you got that one wrong "honest it's the truth"?? Or have I missed something in the translation? If so please educate me in the way's of the weege.

Many thanks, John.

37

godwore7,

Summerston 04/10/2006 12:50:41

Poor little Rangers and their supporters,everybody's picking on them,the poor wee innocents, my erse,bigoted shower of knuckle draggers,you've brought theese problems on yourselves, for over a hundred years you've got away with all kinds of bigotry,stand up like men and take your punishment. Altogether now stand up for the champions.

38

&Larrsonfixestheradio,

04/10/2006 13:32:58

Rangers on "red alert" .... phew no worries. If it had been red hand alert then that would be something to worry about.

http://www.alelivorno.it/forum/FAL/viewtopic.phpt=2562&am...

What would a UEFA delegate take be on this type of behaviour I wonder.

40

John M.,

04/10/2006 13:37:40

Yes James #37, imagine football supporters singing something nasty and non-Pc about their major rivals and vulnerable minority groups such as the gay community. That never happens anywhere else in Scotland does it.

Paul #24 should be aware that Celtic are on thin ice with UEFA given that political extremism is also mentioned alongside discriminatory chanting. There is a reason why Brian Quinn was making all the public statements before the Man United game at Old Trafford:-

http://sport.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1319312006

A very dangerous precedent will be set for the sport if/when football chants start being used to determine game outcomes.

41

Anthony,

04/10/2006 13:45:26

As always the loyal followers of the Forces of Darkness show themselves to be the most paranoid people in football. Everyone is out to get them, apparantly.

So was it everyone's fault but theirs when they got banned from defending their European trophy in 1972?

Is it everyone's fault but theirs that their fans are known around the world for singing about being up to their knees in fenian blood?

It's just a sad slight on Scotland that it took UEFA to do something about it first.

But then when you have the head of the SFA (Jim Farry) being done for being biased in favour of Rangers and deliberately anti-Celtic what else could you expect?

Anyone else see the similarities between Farry and Moggi?

42

Thommo,

04/10/2006 14:00:04

Oh the irony. Thre's a whole book (written by a Celtic fan) about the paranoia of Celtic fans. Not surprising when they bang on about the "Daily Ranger" and make false claims like Jim Farry was "done for being biased in favour of Rangers and deliberately anti-Celtic".

43

Johhny Jambo,

04/10/2006 14:10:50

Anthony(41) and James (37) thank you very much for proving my point. You cannot see beyond your own hatred of Rangers.

44

Andy,

Glasgow 04/10/2006 14:55:39

Post 36.

John,

No this is a standard phrase used by many Celtic fans to describe Ibrox, (but ..... please dont tell them the error of their ways) I find it highly amusing whenever they use it and agree that I'm off to Castle Greyskull ;)

It amazes me how 'outraged' people get over the use of inflammatory words when there are far more pressing problems in our society...what with Vandalism/Arson/Group sex and dishonest behaviour or is that just the MSP's setting a bad example ?

45

,

04/10/2006 14:56:16
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46

,

04/10/2006 14:59:21
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47

,

04/10/2006 15:33:08
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48

,

04/10/2006 15:55:37
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49

Jack Slim,

04/10/2006 16:42:21

KWS #19:
"This debate shows that the sooner both Rangers, Celtic and hopefully their fans uproot to the Premiership the better for Scottish football"

Listen mate, although it has been suggested many times that Celtic and Rangers should join the Premiership, this is NOT going to happen. The Premiership does not need the kind of religious bitch fights, sectarian nonsense, and general crappiness that Celtic and Rangers bring to the SPL. Thankfully, over the past decade or so the Premiership (and English football as a whole) has implemented many schemes to root out fan violence and trouble of this nature, and the Prem is now probably the best league in the world in this respect. Not saying there aren't still problems with a few fans, but racism, pitch fights and such behaviour have basically been wiped out, and if the SPL thinks it an dump R+C into the Prem to get rid of their bad apples, they've gt another think coming.

I always place a bet with myself before I enter a story on this website concerning R or C on how many posts it will be before someone starts with the sectarian stuff or fan abuse or slagging eachother off. Usually occurs no later then post 3 or 4. The Prem does not need this kinda crap!!

50

Sonni,

04/10/2006 16:48:50

#39 Is it normal for Rangers and Celtic fans to "invade" foreign forums and "discuss" their own problems there?
Anyway, you're welcome :-)

As far as Livorno is concerned, this article seems not to be very precise, and it couldn't be different since we're obviously not the best known of sides... let me just say that most of that things about the "most notorious supports in italian football" is quite exaggerated, but the blame for that, I'm afraid, falls mostly on italian press :-)

Anyway, the attitude of our fans towards the match IS very positive, with all of us looking forward to a nice game and a good drink together before and/or after the game; at least, it was so before all that fuss about celtic/rangers divide began to flourish on our forums... let's hope this doesn't change, but I'm not so sure about it, since some strange words have yet begun to be read here and there...

51

,

04/10/2006 17:57:40
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52

Woooof!,

04/10/2006 18:04:41

Best discussion of the Masters of the Universe cartoon series in the context of Celtic-Rangers relations EVER!

"I HAVE THE POWER!"

53

Stanley,

05/10/2006 00:11:41

Utterly utterly sick of Celtic supporters jumping on every single thread that refers to Rangers and spouting their twisted oh so superior garbage. There are (now validated) reports of Celtic fans feeding lies and half truths to Italian fans to try and ensure that there is trouble and that someone actually gets hurt in Italy. It is utterly despicabe, boring and predictable. The superior sneering tone of the supporters of Celtic who frequent these boards are really beyond the pale and give decent folk the boke. Rangers fans arent perfect, but by God you Celtic boys go on and on and on and on.
I'd be curious to ask these "fans"(who seem to hate Rangers much much more than they care for their own club) but how would you feel if (for example) Rangers fans were badly hurt or worse (God forbid) as a result of the poisonous venom being spouted by so called Celtic fans on boards such as this?
Here's the tricky bit though...are you able to answer the question without attemtping to put the boot into Rangers?....I do hope this isnt like asking an alcoholic not to drink a glass of vodka you've just handed them!..
Oh, and before the paranoia Police start, I'm not a Rangers fan either!

54

Sean G,

05/10/2006 05:04:31

Sonni-do not listen to people like #51 Charlie who would like to poison your minds with their own prejudiced warped view of the world. Rangers have had many Italian players and recently had an Italian captain -Lorenzo Amoruso.

Just so you know Celtic fans are not really Scottish but claim an Irish identity with sectarian roots. They -not Rangers-have very strong links to the fascists in the IRA and they also idolise Paulo Di Canio who played for them. Rest assured that Rangers fans will respect Livorno fans and your country in our traditional Scottish manner.

Buona fortuna -and may the best team win.

55

Sonni,

05/10/2006 07:13:03

Ian, no offence meant to anybody, but that sort of babel-fish italian at #51 is far from understandable :-)

But, just the same: we don't have to take parts in your disputes, so please don't try to convince us upon anything, on any side :-)
And, for the match: I'm not sure I wish the best team to win, I wish WE could win, and I'm afraid we're NOT the best team :-)

56

Pete the ex-pat,

London 05/10/2006 08:55:56

Ian #54
"Just so you know Celtic fans are not really Scottish but claim an Irish identity with sectarian roots." - not true.

"They (Celtic fans) - have very strong links to fascists" - and rather offensively put.

"They (Celtic fans) - have very strong links to in the IRA" - not true and very offensively put.

"They (Celtic fans) idolise Paulo Di Canio who played for them" - many appreciate Paolo's footballing skills but find his political leanings abhorrent - they were never shown during his time playing for the club, which in fact has a strong anti-facist reputation.

Rest assured that Rangers fans will respect Livorno fans and your country in our traditional Scottish manner - I really hope you do and will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Glad to clear that up and good luck, may the best team win.

Am looking forward to my first game in Italy - am on business in Milan when Inter play Spartak Moscow and am at Celtic Park the night before so looking forward to comparing atmospheres!

57

,

05/10/2006 10:10:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 94968, Article id was mapped to record!
58

Sean G,

05/10/2006 10:31:19

#56 Peter --so:

1) Celtic fans do not identify with Ireland-really since when-so is that why we see so many tricolours rather than saltires in the support? Incidently, perhaps you know-where about in Ireland is Glasgow?;

2) Celtic were not founded for sectarian purposes-so Brother Walfrid did not want to keep the Irish RC immigrants from being corrupted by them bad proddies-aye right;

3) Your fans do not praise the fascists in the IRA-gosh then my old ears must be playing tricks every time I listen to the Bhoys in full flow on tv -Boys Of The Old Brigade etc;

4) they did not idolise PDC-well if you say so!


You people really do inhabit a different planet over there on Snake mountain!

59

Sonni,

05/10/2006 10:52:50

"but their Ultras are amoungst the most violent."

may I reassure you on this point? It is utter nonsense.
And it is from the start, as the last group of fans to be named "Ultras" in Livorno has vanished since 1999.
The number of violent acts that were effectively proved to be committed by Livorno fans are far far less than MOST of any other support in Italy. Nonetheless, it is true that Livorno fans have probably a record for accuses and trials : MOST of which ended with a complete acquittal.
Not that I want to discuss here why such things happen in italy... but be sure that, if it is possible that some odd hothead is around trying to mess things up, the GREATEST part of Livorno fans will wait for you with a friendly attitude.

60

Pete the ex-pat,

London 05/10/2006 12:04:28

Ian

1) I was born and raised in Scotland I am Scottish and a Celtic fan, therefore your assertion that Celtic fans are not Scottish is incorrect. I'm a Celtic fan and go to games but do not own a tricolour. Equally I don't own a saltire. Neither of these factors make me more or less Scottish. Ireland is 12 miles away from Scotland, and is the source of a lot of migrant workers and the club was founded in what was a ghetto of the poorest people in Glasgow, hence it's Irish links. Next you'll be telling their should be no Scots in Northern Ireland because they had to move there?!

2) Celtic were founded to raise funds for the poor in the East End regardless of their denomination. This is well known and written in the Celtic Social Mission statement.

3) Celtic have banned a number of songs from being sung at Celtic Park, the only place they can effectively police their fans. They did this before rthey were told to as a proactrive not reactive measure. The fact that the only club found guilty of sectarian singing by Uefa is Rangers, the subject of this thread, is more pertinent to this discussion than any songs Celtic fans may sing away from their home stadium. It was only after this ruling that any efforts have been made to stop singing offensive songs that have been sung for years.

4) Di Canio was the Scottish players' player of the year in 97 so it was not only Celtic fans that admired him. He was also the recipient of UEFA's Fair Play Award (as were the Celtic fans post Seville of course) for his actions at West Ham, so he's not all bad. However as I stated Celtic fans appreciated Paolo's footballing skills but many find his political leanings abhorrent. As to his being an "idol" - he
only played for Celtic in 37 games. I wouldn't have said he was an "idol" - I would suggest guys like Henrik & Jinky were.

As to your reference "You people..." - that sums you up I'm afraid - stereotypes and assump

61

JamesTCB,

London 05/10/2006 12:33:40

Peter @ 60

Need to correct you re your pt 3) above, Rangers have had their Pride Over Prejudice initiative for a number of years. In fact this initiative has recently been praised by UEFA and received 2 commendations in their report issued in August. The efforts may have been stepped up due to the UEFA ruling but to say they only started is inherently wrong.
In fact it's quite clear that the ruling against Rangers has caused not only Rangers to step up their initiatives but also Celtic and Hearts, to focus purely on the Scottish European contingent, but I'm sure that equal emphasis is being placed on other teams and countries where bigotry/sectarianism/racism etc is rife, i.e the Catalan & Basque teams in Spain, the Bavarian teams in Germany.
Just because Rangers have been made an example of, does not mean that this is only an issue for Rangers, the UEFA campaign is far reaching and if supporters of other teams are content to sit back and gloat then it will be they who will receive the severe penalties.
Rangers FC and their supporters are rising to the challenge that has been set them, we will meet the challenge and will continue to walk the streets where our team is playing with our heads held high.

62

JamesTCB,

London 05/10/2006 12:43:14

Further to my post above, please read this link, it's an article from this newspaper in which a UEFA representative acknowledges Rangers efforts.

http://sport.scotsman.com/football_european.cfm?id=792132006

I think it also emphasises that it is not purely a Rangers issue, read the comments about Barcelona and Steau Bucharest, UEFA do not have blinkers on, unlike some of the people posting on this thread.

63

Pete the ex-pat,

London 05/10/2006 13:34:22

James - take your point that Pride Over Prejudice was started in 2003, however I didn't actually mention the launch of that campaign. I think you will concede that the campaign has stepped up considerably since the UEFA fine (or "encouragement" as it's euphemistically termed in your link) and it was only post-that decision that there has been an effective action to ban the most offensive songs.

Indeed if the POP campaign had been effective originally, Rangers wouldn't have been punished in the first place. I do take your point however.

But at least everyone is now addressing it. Which is good.

64

Archie,

05/10/2006 19:56:42

Sorry i missed the responses to my earlier post. I'm trying to find where I said I couldn't hear songs from Celtic fans but somehow I just cant find it in my original posting.

Little do rangers fans know the irony of calling foul on songs about murderous organizations whilst reminiscing about those peaceful times when brittania ruled the ways, spreading love and good will to all men around the world. It's not sectarian of course to sing of such things of course, you have plenty of other songs covering that.

You have imperial brittania to sing about and Celtic fans have Irish Republicanism. If only you could leave out the wading through blood ditty and your hatred of popes, nuns, rosary beads etc.

Anymore word back on the Milan infiltrators. Sounds a bit Tommy Sheridan to me, was it Roger Billy Rabbit by any chance ?

65

Sean G,

06/10/2006 04:59:31

Peter -

1st point -You have avoided and was about identity- not where people were born. You still have not explained why Celtic fans prefer an Irish identity to that of their country of birth. ie Irish over Scots? I can maybe understand why they dont like the Union Flag but they dont seem to care for the saltire either? As to the Scots in N Ireland-surely by your logic they are also Irish-if not, why not?

2nd point Speaking as someone whose family roots are in the east-end what you say about Celtiic's altruistic origins is completely inaccurate and simply untrue and represents another attempt to rewrite history. You were funded by a priest who tried to copy Hibs in Edinburgh and keep young RC's from mixing with prodtestants. This was then hijacked by businessmen who saw the opportunity to make a fast buck -so spare us all the crap about helping the poor.

3rd point- I take it as an admission on your part that my original point was factual. A large portion of your support glorifies the IRA and has done for as long as I can remember- and I can remember when your greatest ever manager had to go onto the terrace to plead with them to stop doing so! I admit that Rangers fans have also sung objectionable songs but then unlike you I am not in a state of denial.

4) PDC -glad we agree.

As for being in Nirvana-I wish I was! However I think you are the one existing in some kind of transcendental state-but I would hardly term it an enlightened one!

66

Pete the ex-pat,

London 06/10/2006 08:40:08

Ian

4) So we agree on Paolo, and we agree with your unenlightened state so we're getting there... ;o)

1) Addressed exactly your point about Irish v Scots. Am of Irish extraction myself, I didn't mention it earlier, because it wasn't relevant, but I am definitely Scottish. So your generalistation continues to be incorrect. Perhaps the fact some are made to feel so uncomfortable by certain sections of the community might drive them back to their roots - if someone doesn't feel accepted this is often the case. Certainly the recent issue with Artur Boruc recently made me re-assess where I thought Scotland was getting to.

2) Your opinion is your right of course but right I disagree. Celtic Fans disagree. Celtic FC disagrees (officially). The weight of writing on this subject disagrees.

3) It's a bit rich to claim the moral high ground on this subject. The singing debate (political versus religion) has been done to death, not least on these boards. The only British club found guilty of offensive singing is Rangers, do not tar Celtic with your brush.

You are also incorrect to say that I accept your point regarding Celtic Fans very strong links to the "fascists of the IRA", by which I took you to be talking about the PIRA, who's political wing is avowedly left wing, so where the facists bit in your post came in is a bit of a mystery.

I don't and none of my Celtic-supporting friends have strong links to either group, again you have a sterotype of Celtic fans that is inconsistent with my experience.

This'll be my last post on this thread. Good luck to every team playing in the UEFA cup, esp. Livorno: don't worry guys, they'll understand it's a red hand salute ;-)

67

Archie,

06/10/2006 08:52:42

Ian

I'm curious as to why you think you have the right to question the authenticity of hundreds of thousands of peoples identities ? Surely it is a personal matter and not up for debate. I'm quite sure you wouldn't ask the same question of people of Indian descent who consider themselves Indian before the country of their birth. I suppose it takes time for it to sink in that people of Irish descent are no longer an easy target for pot shots.

As to your laughable rewriting of Celtic's history, I have one question, where is your proof ? There is plenty to disprove your assessment that Celtic was founded for sectarian reasons.

Oh and follow follow isn't actually a source before you start wasting your time looking.

68

Sean G,

06/10/2006 12:00:18

Archie

You really did not think I was going to let you have the last word on 67!!

Re the authenticity of the identities- I have not met any UK "Indians" who regard themselves as anything other than British-often more than the rest of us. I am genuinely puzzled as to why many Celtic supporters choose one identity ie Irish over the other Scottish, when for the most part they would have a stronger claim to the latter . I can understand why they may not like to wave the union flag but the aversion to the saltire I do find strange. Also like many you assume that everone who came from across the sea last century was RC which was far from the truth-or do the tens of thousands of Ulster-Scots protestants who came here not count as "real Irish"? FYI I also have Irish family ancestry.

As to Celtic's history-read the account on the origins of Hibernian under the history section of the official Hibs web site (hardly followfollow) where they disparage the notion that charity was the prime motivator. Sadly, Celtic were founded for sectarian purposes from day one -a policy which incidently is perpuated to the current day in Scotland by the RC Church through its vile apartheid education system.

Incidently you stole Hibs players and even the green and white hoops-another thing you are still expert at -and please tell us -whatever did happen to Brother Walfrid?

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/

"Over the coming months several meetings were arranged in Glasgow to drum up support for the idea of a new ‘Hibernian’ in Glasgow. Some Irish Catholic leaders however could see some of the danger signs, as it was becoming apparent in these meetings that some of the men coming to the fore where business-minded with hints that personal gain rather than charitable aims were uppermost in their thoughts. Brother Walfrid however appeared oblivious to this as he pressed forward wit

69

Pete the ex-pat,

London 06/10/2006 13:21:41

CONGRATULATIONS IAN! Post 68 before Catholic Schools were mentioned!!!

FFS There are Catholic schools in the USA (largest private sector educator I believe), England, all over the world and yet they don't have any of the sectarian issues we have in Scotland. Know I said I was done but the Catholic schools thing is a bugbear of mine - and I didn't even go to one...

BTW did you read that Hibs History?

The whole first part is devoted to what a hard life Irish Catholics had coming to Scotland, the discrimination and the hardship were the reason Hibs were formed and then re. Brother Walfrid: "He could see for himself the effect that Hibernian were having both on the spirits of the community they served and in the finance they were able to raise for charitable causes, he could see also that should such a football club exist in Glasgow, it could attract an even larger following than that claimed by Hibernian. The seeds that would become Glasgow Celtic had been sewn."

And the rest as they say is history...

This topic is ended, I'm off to love and serve etc....

70

peter peter,

09/10/2006 11:25:53

Ian, I for one am still looking for the evidence you spoke of regarding Celtic being founded as a sectarian concern? You provide dubious 'evidence' that Celtic was formed for profit rather than charity but were is the other evidence you cited?

Good to see the old apartheid school issue is alive and well as a route for buck passing!

71

Stanley,

09/10/2006 13:11:20

#70
Be great to hear exactly from Peter exactly what the "apartheid" (his words)schooling system actually brings to Scotland. No doubt the defence will be a robust defence with the normal wide eyed, "what are those bigots implying" type of response.
I'm neither up nor down, and believe like supporters of seperate schooling are wont to quote, that bigotry comes from the home...but only to an extent.
If we integrate the kids, they will soon knock the adults into shape, get on and understand each others culture more, and make a meaningful move to eradicate Scotland of the TWO way bigotry that exists....
Get rid of them and let the Catholic church exert its influence through the church itself and through the parents only.....all in my humble opinion of course
Signed...someone who lives in the real world in Scotland.
PS To all offended readers...it isnt bigotry to suggest an alternative ! ;-)

72

peter peter,

09/10/2006 14:04:24

This issue of seperate education is a can of worms that i am loathed to comment on, other than it cannot and should not be used as an excuse for, and certainly is not the cause of bigotry in this country. Religious intolerance existed long before the introduction of the Catholic school system and continues to this day. So to use it as a thinly veiled excuse/reason for the issues of today is pure folly.

Ps nancy, the word "apartheid" was actually quoted from the previous poster

73

Stanley,

09/10/2006 14:31:54

OK Peter, whatever you say...keep on separatin them, keep on defendin them kinda thing!?
Middle ages stuff and not for me thanks.
"apartheid" was a wee joke btw dinny fret yersel..

74

peter peter,

09/10/2006 14:39:56

I never at any stage defended them or endorsed them, i merely stated that they were in no way the cause or root of the problem.

I did, however question the relevance of their inclusion in this debate, which is in my opinion irrelevant.

My opinions on seperate schooling has, and will remain private.

Hope this post is easier not to mis-construe

75

,

10/10/2006 07:49:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

peter peter,

10/10/2006 08:31:51

That is truly out of order if it is accurate Graham, which website was this?

77

Sonni,

10/10/2006 10:17:29

#75 well, if you think that Rangers fans are mistreated by those Celtic supporters that give out informations to Livorno fans web sites, I guess you should refrain from such statements about the "worst thugs in Europe", shouldn't you?

78

Stanley,

10/10/2006 11:16:41

Facts are what facts are.Celtic fans have been on the Livorno fans websites trying to stir up serious trouble.
Forget all the smoke and mirrors from the Celtic fans on this thread THAT is the only relevance here.
I would pray to God (ours) that no Rangers fans would stoop to that kind of nonsense and endanger the lives of guys who we essentially work beside and drink with..
You should be ashamed of yourselves
Oh, try and answer without dragging up some stuff about Rangers from the bygone days of yore (oops tell UEFA)

79

peter peter,

10/10/2006 11:26:53

answer what? you asked no question!

80

Jim,

10/10/2006 11:43:20

Anthony, I really thought you would have given up by now but obviously you have a large brass neck.

"the most paranoid people in football"

Which club hired a psychologist to study the actions of a referee (Hugh Dallas) during an Old Firm game?

Which club put a message on their scoreboard telling their supporters not to buy the Daily Record after the “Thugs ‘n’ Thieves” incident in Newcastle?

Which club's player (Sutton) claimed that Dunfermline lay down to Rangers to hand them the league without even seeing the game and confessed that he and his team mates had discussed it in the dressing room beforehand. “We knew they’d lie down, we spoke about it beforehand”

Which club's manager also accused the same Dunfermiline team of lying down to Rangers?

Which club's Manager and Chief Executive claimed that the SFA had deliberately rescheduled an Old Firm game to favour Rangers?

Which club's fans hired a private investigator to monitor the movements of a Scottish referee (Jim McCluskey?)

Which club has a lengthy badly written book about them called "Paranoia? All in the mind?"

You really are a Grade "A" fool.

81

&Larrsonfixestheradio,

10/10/2006 17:37:42

Jim,

just because your paranoid it doesn´t mean that they are not out to get you. All the stuff on this thread is up for debate and discussion. What is not up for debate; you can see the pictures for yourself on the URL that I proudly posted. Is Hundreds of Rangers fans making a Nazi salute. Something that is a criminal offence in Holland or Germany. Either way you look at it. You fly with the craws you get shot wi thum. Anybody doing a Nazi salute desrves all the crap that life can bestow upon them.


 

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